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Dear Benedek,<br>
<br>
</font>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Thursday 18 October 2012 01:15 PM,
Benedek, Wolfgang (<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:wolfgang.benedek@uni-graz.at">wolfgang.benedek@uni-graz.at</a>)
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:CCA57C26.24E62%25wolfgang.benedek@uni-graz.at"
type="cite">
<div>
<div>
<div>Dear Parminder,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>while I agree that consumer rights are different from
human rights,</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
That is all I am saying. And this distinction is important. Also as
discussed below, we are into a kind of framing discussion and this
priority mention of consumer rights in a human rights description is
not just a casual thing. It is very meaningful, and has to be seen
in its meaningfulness (as discussed in brief a little later)<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:CCA57C26.24E62%25wolfgang.benedek@uni-graz.at"
type="cite">
<div>
<div>
<div> I want to emphasize that they can and should have an
effect on consumer rights.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
Is there any area where human rights cannot/ may not and should not
have an effect? That is the meaning of human rights, they are
applicable everywhere. They are very basic, first principles. This
does not mean that we can conflate an area where they should be
applicable with human rights themselves. Not to make the distinction
would be quite detrimental to human rights. Would you not agree as a
Prof of human rights?<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:CCA57C26.24E62%25wolfgang.benedek@uni-graz.at"
type="cite">
<div>
<div>
<div> State bodies bound by human rights should regulate
private actors in a way that that they respect human rights,
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
That has always been so meant. Does not all private activity or even
all regulation as human rights areas. What is the sanctity left for
human rights if it were to. <br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:CCA57C26.24E62%25wolfgang.benedek@uni-graz.at"
type="cite">
<div>
<div>
<div> i.e. in the field of data protection, freedom of
expression or quality of services, which might also relate
to economic, social or cultural rights, like the right to
education.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Well just might :). Although none seems concerned that there could
be economic, social and cultural rights vis a vis the Internet and
IG. Would that exploration not be necessary? Does framing a round
table on human rights while completely ignoring these set of
positive rights not send a wrong signal, and also a very significant
wrong signal. This is my second objection to the present framing of
the round table. <br>
<blockquote cite="mid:CCA57C26.24E62%25wolfgang.benedek@uni-graz.at"
type="cite">
<div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In this context, the Council of Europe has established a
Committee of Experts on (Human) Rights of Internet Users, </div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Hopefully, they would not conflate consumer rights and human rights,
or are they likely too. This present round table framing, backed by
an European country and some key civil society groups, is foreboding
in this regard. <br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:CCA57C26.24E62%25wolfgang.benedek@uni-graz.at"
type="cite">
<div>which recently has started it s work with the objective to
elaborate what are (human) rights of internet users. We are
aware that this is a difficult area, precisely for the reasons
You mentioned, but think that because of the practical effects
which terms of service and other private agreements do have on
the realization of human rights of users, there is a need to
look at these private contracts from a human rights perspective.</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Again, isnt that everything needs to be looked at from a HR angle,
which then does not turn everything into human rights. Isnt this a
straight forward logic. I am increasingly bothered about certain
kind of creeping encroachments and sullying of human rights by a
neo-liberal framework. Is anything at all safe or sacrosanct from
the god of market?<br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:CCA57C26.24E62%25wolfgang.benedek@uni-graz.at"
type="cite">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best regards</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Wolfgang Benedek </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id="OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div style="font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt;
text-align:left; color:black; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none;
BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT:
0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid;
BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt"><span
style="font-weight:bold">Von: </span> parminder <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Antworten an: </span> "<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>>,
parminder <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Datum: </span> Donnerstag, 18.
Oktober 2012 09:18<br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">An: </span> "<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Betreff: </span> [governance]
Fwd: Re: [igf_members] Proposal: Human Rights Roundtable<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
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<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><br>
<div class="moz-forward-container"><font face="Verdana">this
is the comment I sent to the MAG (multistakeholder
advisory group) of the IGF. </font><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-------- Original Message --------
<table class="moz-email-headers-table" border="0"
cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT">Subject:
</th>
<td>Re: [igf_members] Proposal: Human Rights
Roundtable</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT">Date:
</th>
<td>Tue, 16 Oct 2012 09:18:25 +0530</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT">From:
</th>
<td>parminder <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">
<parminder@itforchange.net></a></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT">To:
</th>
<td><a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:igf_members@intgovforum.org">igf_members@intgovforum.org</a></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
<br>
<font face="Verdana">Dear Alice/ All,<br>
<br>
Apologies for intrusion by someone who, I understand, </font><font
face="Verdana">has </font><font face="Verdana">an
observer status on this list.<br>
<br>
This initiative of a round table on human rights is very
important. Since it is not just an workshop, but a
higher level activity with some kind of a larger IGF/
MAG ownership (do I understand it right!), we have to be
especially careful about framing the background note and
agenda. In this regard I have the following observations
to make. <br>
<br>
(1) Consumer rights are not considered as human rights.
Consumer rights are based on private contracts, although
the consumer as the structurally weaker party in such
contracts is provided some special general protections
which are embodied in consumer rights. Human rights are
based on the social contract. (There are those who go
even further and claim that they are kind of part of our
'natural condition' but I dont buy that.) I do not
think we should include consumer rights as part of human
rights. It greatly dilutes the </font><font
face="Verdana">discourse of </font><font face="Verdana">human
rights, and their legitimacy. <br>
<br>
(2) The background note focusses exclusively on civil
and political rights, like privacy, FoE, and does not
mention social, economic and cultural rights at all. It
is useful to refer in this regard the opening paragraphs
of the Geneva Declaration that speaks of indivisibility
of human rights, and the need to take all kinds and
categories of human rights together. In context of the
Internet, one can immediately think of human rights
issues like, universal access (especially with some
countries already treating it as a right) and net
neutrality. There are others as well, like cultural
rights involved in multilingualism, domain name
allocations etc. It will be good if we can expand the
note to give representation and space to all kinds of
human rights and not just civil and political rights.
Alternatively, maybe we can call the event as a round
table on civil and political rights.<br>
<br>
This is for your consideration.<br>
<br>
Also, can I share this note with civil society groups
for their comments?<br>
<br>
best regards, parminder <br>
<br>
<br>
</font>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Friday 12 October 2012
12:05 PM, <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:alice@apc.org"> alice@apc.org</a> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:39887.10.254.253.3.1350023752.squirrel@sqmail.gn.apc.org"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Dear Colleaques,
We wish to submit this proposal for a Human Rights round Table.
Apologies for submitting it a bit late, but hope you will consider it.
Best regards
Alice
------------------------------
HUMAN RIGHTS ROUNDTABLE
IGF 2012
Background
During the IGF MAG meeting held in May 2012 in Geneva, several ways to
develop the cross-cutting issues (human rights and development) were
proposed. Particularly, the group in charge of structuring the Taking
Stock and the Way Forward session suggested that the second part of the
session includes feedback from the cross-cutting
themes which could be developed through round tables. It was supported by
other MAG members (see transcripts MAG meeting 17 May)[1].
Additionally, it is important to mention as a background element, that
approximately 40 workshop proposals for the 2012 Internet Governance Forum
make specific reference to human rights related issues, including privacy,
freedom of expression, data rights, cyber security, and internet
intermediary liability.
Consumer rights are a growing area of interest, including the need for
transparency, regulatory oversight, and mechanisms for addressing consumer
complaints. Data ownership and privacy are major issues in this area.
Human rights in relation to security is a major theme for the IGF,
including cybercrime, and the tension between privacy and security. There
are several proposed workshops on the protection of children and youth, as
well as practical workshops on surveillance and data protection.
Developing best practices and legal frameworks is discussed in many of the
workshop proposals, particularly in light of increasing restrictions on
freedom of expression, and new liabilities for internet intermediaries.
Multi-stakeholderism is a cross-cutting theme in the workshop proposals,
particularly with respect to determining best practices and frameworks.
Based on it, Kenya, in partnership with APC, Finland and Sweden, would
like to propose the organisation of a human rights round table which look
at how HR issues related to the internet were addressed in the various
main sessions and workshops.
Objective
The objective of the human rights round table is to gather comprehensive
feedback from the various main sessions and workshops in relation to which
human rights issues were addressed by the various stakeholders and to use
those inputs to feed the Taking Stock and the Way Forward session. It
will help us to increase knowledge and understanding of the human rights
and the internet specific concerns and challenges the various stakeholders
have as well as their proposals to address them in the framework of the
internet governance debate. It will also help to increase understanding
of the linkages between the HR issues addressed in the various main
sessions and the main IGF theme.
Themes in analysis will include privacy, censorship, intermediary
liability, cybercrime, among others.
Format
The round table will be held in a multi-stakeholder environment in which
speakers/participants who took part of the various main sessions and
workshops bring their perspectives in a concrete manner to feed the TSWF
session and propose ways to advance the HR discussion within the IGF.
_______________________________________________
igf_members mailing list
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:igf_members@intgovforum.org">igf_members@intgovforum.org</a><a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://mail.intgovforum.org/mailman/listinfo/igf_members_intgovforum.org">http://mail.intgovforum.org/mailman/listinfo/igf_members_intgovforum.org</a></pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<br>
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</div>
</span> </blockquote>
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