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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Friday 28 September 2012 10:01 PM,
Milton L Mueller wrote:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New";color:#1F497D">What about the users? Shouldn’t
they have a say in the rules? </span></p>
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Milton<br>
<br>
They should use democratic processes, and if the processes are not
fine, fight to have the right processes. This is the history of
struggles for democracy, which continue, although a new neoliberal
discourse has been trying to confuse them through concepts like
users rights (whats wrong with people's rights!),
multistakeholderism (whats wrong with participatory democracy),
internet exceptionalism and so on. <br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New";color:#1F497D">Are you proposing to
re-territorialize the Internet so that national governments
can have full authority?</span></p>
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<br>
You of course realise that US gov has full authority over its own
digital space, and considerable authority over that of other
countries. Thus it may be more useful to direct civil society fire
power where the illegitimate concentration of power lies.<br>
<br>
However, even if one is to take your hint, and seek non-national
global law for the global Internet (and I understand, at least hope,
that you still are believer in the rule of law unlike the naive
anarchist view that seem to dominate a certain techie mindset), I
have failed to see any proposals from you for framing global laws
for, what we both agree is and should be preserved as a, global
Internet. You have mostly opined that, for instance in case of ICANN
oversight, US laws being applied to the world is rather ok. You
oppose internationalism for global law making, and have neither
proposed any evolutionary improvements to internationalism(as ITfC
has proposed), or, as I far I know, even any radical improvements. <br>
<br>
Challenging application of national laws on the Internet in
developing countries (the fact of a particular law being bad is a
very different issues and should be dealt by democratic and civil
society processes) and instead advocating application of US globally
does not make for a very convincing case. <br>
<br>
<br>
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snip</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New";color:#1F497D">Google or any other multinational
social media provider isn’t perfect. But terms of use
constitute a private ordering that users can opt out of if
they don’t use the service. Who in Brazil (or any other
country) gets to opt out of dumb laws and dumb judges? </span></p>
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<br>
You are telling people to submit to a corporatist ordering of our
social systems. 'you can opt out if you wish' is often an insulting
proposition by those who control to the controlled, when structural
realities make such a proposition rather meaningless. Like those
calling for a fair and just globalisation being told, well, if you
dont like it, you can opt out of globalisation as it is occurring
now. <br>
<br>
On the other hand, I do understand that in the new neoliberal global
world order, their is this new political direction of richer classes
in most countries (especially, but not only, developing countries)
to seek to opt out of the democratic order they are 'subject to' in
favour of a new post-democratic global order whose political capital
lies in the US, because whether they like it or not, any new system
still needs some kind of political coercive authority, for instance
to make those early dawn knocks to catch people doing things as
dangerous as sharing video files.<br>
<br>
Also, that reminds me, what about the desire of non US people to
'opt out of dumb laws and judges' of the US.... like in the case of
their involvement in ICANN oversight/ interference... to those who
want such an opt out, you have said that US laws and judges are good
and should continue to overlord over the ICANN (for whatever
'minimalist' areas that you lay down). When you want Brazilians to
be able to opt out of Brazilian dumb laws and judges, your lack of
sympathy for non USians to seek opting out of the dumb US laws and
judges' supervision of ICANN, when they are not even 'formally'
accountable other than to the US public, looks rather
self-contradictory.<br>
<br>
parminder <br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Thiago Tavares Nunes de Oliveira<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, September 28, 2012 11:07 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>;
Ivar A. M. Hartmann<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] Google's officer with
detention order in brasil<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Em 28/09/2012, às 10:35, Ivar A. M.
Hartmann escreveu:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">For those
overlooking the key issue in this and similar cases in
Brazil, it is not whether Google wants to secure its
holding as a market leader or ensure its profit. The key
issue is free speech. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">No, is it NOT. The key issue is about
power, as highlighted on this Der Spiegel article: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/how-google-lobbies-german-government-over-internet-regulation-a-857654.html">http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/how-google-lobbies-german-government-over-internet-regulation-a-857654.html</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">The key issue on democracy countries
like Brazil is: <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">"<span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black;background:white">who
sets the rules in this business: Google, with its
terms of use, or the government and courts?"</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I remember you that this was NOT the
first time that the chief of Google's office in Brazil
faces criminal charges for not comply with brazilians
court orders. The former Google Brazil president (now
Facebook VP for Latin America) was indicted in 2006/07
for not comply with dozens of brazilians court orders
that demanded Orkut users data to assist brazilian law
enforcement authorities on child sexual abuse and
neonazi cases: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.prsp.mpf.gov.br/prdc/sala-de-imprensa/noticias_prdc/noticia-3294">http://www.prsp.mpf.gov.br/prdc/sala-de-imprensa/noticias_prdc/noticia-3294</a>
(english auto translation: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://bit.ly/S62POw">http://bit.ly/S62POw</a>)<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">ps: an english background reading on
this case is avaliable on WSJ website: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119273558149563775.html">http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119273558149563775.html</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
-- <br>
Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo sistema de antivírus e <br>
acredita-se estar livre de perigo. <o:p></o:p></p>
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