<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>This is also bout freedom of speech...</div><div><br></div><div>Carlos<br><br>Enviado desde mi iPhone</div><div><br>El 23/09/2012, a las 20:50, Chaitanya Dhareshwar <<a href="mailto:chaitanyabd@gmail.com">chaitanyabd@gmail.com</a>> escribió:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div>It's nice (in that they try to be candid) - but chances are they'll end up prosecuted like most others. </div><div> </div><div>-C<br><br></div><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 1:57 AM, Carlos Vera Quintana <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:cveraq@gmail.com" target="_blank">cveraq@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid" class="gmail_quote"><div dir="auto"><div>Some opinion please?</div><div><br></div>
<div><a href="http://www.projectcensored.org/" target="_blank">http://www.projectcensored.org/</a></div><div><br></div><div>Carlos Vera<br><br>Enviado desde mi iPhone</div><div><br>El 23/09/2012, a las 15:12, "Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro" <<a href="mailto:salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro@gmail.com" target="_blank">salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro@gmail.com</a>> escribió:<br>
<br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 2:42 AM, Norbert Bollow <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:nb@bollow.ch" target="_blank">nb@bollow.ch</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid" class="gmail_quote">
Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro <<a href="mailto:salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro@gmail.com" target="_blank">salanieta.tamanikaiwaimaro@gmail.com</a>><br>
wrote:<br>
<div><br>
> I don't feel that we need new legitimate international systems to<br>
> address the problem of botnets.<br>
<br>
</div>I also certainly wouldn't ask for a "legitimate international systems to<br>
address the problem of botnets" specifically, but I share the concern<br>
that I believe Parminder was expressing, and I think that domain name<br>
seizures by US courts when the domain name holder is outside the US<br>
need to be either stopped or made subject to legitimate internationally<br>
agreed rules.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The reality is that countries differ in the manner of categorising cyber crime and this poses a challenge as far as extra-territorial jurisdictional enforcement. If country A and country B both have the same categorisation of what they consider to be a cyber crime, then chances of law enforcement cooperation are higher then if they were'nt. For instance even despite things like the Budapest Convention it does not mean that categorisation is the same for countries who have ratified it. For example, if we take "child pornography", Article 9(2) limits this content related offence, see: "<span style="text-align:justify;font-family:Arial,Verdana,sans-serif;font-size:14px;background-color:rgb(240,240,240)">For the purpose of paragraph 1 above, the term "child pornography" shall include pornographic material that visually depicts"</span></div>
<div><br></div><div><p style="text-align:justify;font-family:Arial,Verdana,sans-serif;font-size:14px;font-weight:bold;background-color:rgb(240,240,240)"><span style="font-family:arial;font-size:small;font-weight:normal">On one hand you have blind persons claiming "visual impairment" as a defence. </span></p>
</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid" class="gmail_quote">
It is part of the responsibility of courts to weigh the effects of an<br>
order that is requested not only with regard to the litigants, but also<br>
with regard to the public interest and with regard to innocent third<br>
parties that might be affected.</blockquote><div>The third parties are those computers who have been infected by "Malware" andl who have no idea that their machines are being unscrupulously used by a few. </div>
<div> </div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid" class="gmail_quote"> Third parties who would be affected by<br>
the order must be given a fair opportunity to inform the court about<br>
how they would be affected.<br></blockquote><div>Imagine in this case identifying the John Does and flying 35 million persons for one trial. So it follows that enforcement in this regard is not that simple.
</div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid" class="gmail_quote">
<br>
Does anyone seriously believe that in this case there was any chance<br>
for the effects on the innocent third parties in China to be explained,<br>
or appropriately weighted, or weighted as strongly as if they had been<br>
US residents?<br></blockquote><div> Botnets are global and so end users computers who are caught in the "dragnet" are from the world over. You are right there should be robust dialogue and discussions on this matter as far as establishing criminal liability, rights of parties etc etc. </div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid" class="gmail_quote">
<br>
All website addresses and email addresses at subdomains of <a href="http://3322.org" target="_blank">3322.org</a><br>
were destroyed by the seizure. In my understanding that was "arbitrary<br>
or unlawful interference with" the "correspondence" of innocent<br>
people, and therefore a human rights violation (see ICCPR [1], article <br>
17).<br>
[1] <a href="http://idgovmap.org/map/treaty/ICCPR" target="_blank">http://idgovmap.org/map/treaty/ICCPR</a></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Well this is something that should be robustly discussed etc where we collectively explore all sides and weigh the matter thoroughly. </div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid" class="gmail_quote"><br>
<br>
(IMO, if the US court did not consider the effects on the innocent<br>
third parties, then the seizure was *arbitrary* interference. If the<br>
court considered those side-effects but considered them justifiable,<br>
then the seizure was *unlawful* interference, because US courts lack<br>
jurisdiction to decide that the correspondence of a Chinese person in<br>
China with other people in China may for some reason lawfully be<br>
interfered with.)<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div> </div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid" class="gmail_quote">
<br>
Greetings,<br>
Norbert<br>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div>Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala</div><div>P.O. Box 17862</div><div>Suva</div><div>Fiji</div><div><br></div><div>Twitter: @SalanietaT</div><div>Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro</div>
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