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<TITLE>Re: [governance] Meanwhile back at the ranch - Was Big Porn v. Big Web Ruling Could Spell Trouble for ICANN / was Re: new gTLDs</TITLE>
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<FONT FACE="Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:11pt'>Hi Parminder,<BR>
<BR>
I would certainly like to see ICANN as an international organisation, and I think from previous posts Avri would too. <BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT FACE="Times New Roman"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12pt'>Meanwhile, back at the ranch, 2012 may well go down in history as the year that the internet collapse began – and it’s not just the USA responsible. <BR>
<BR>
Everywhere it seems under threat from unilateral government decisions, corporate takedowns at the behest of the powerful rather than according to any clear policy for such actions, security issues, the replacement of internet protocols with dedicated apps in the mobile sector, and a host of other cybersecurity, cybercrime, copyright and patent decisions. What we are seeing is a swathe of unilateral government decisions and corporate decisions without reference to common law, common sense, and common interest.<BR>
<BR>
The list goes on and on. South Korea and USA (and others) delivering different court judgments on Apple/Samsung patents, websites being taken down by a host of governments without notice or explanation and then being reinstated without charges being laid, Paypal and others suspending payments to Wikileaks, SOPA, PIPA, user data being hacked and released in response to government measures aimed at personal data retention without warrant or court order, and political censorship in many countries including countries who would normally speak out against this.<BR>
<BR>
End to end, it’s a mess. No that’s nothing to do with ICANN or IETF. And probably nothing to do with Internet Governance Forum either which, if it discusses any of these issues in detail, will probably only do so in the corridors.<BR>
<BR>
But it sure has a lot to do with Internet governance, and Internet governance is in a mess.<BR>
<BR>
Sorry to change the topic. <BR>
<BR>
Ian Peter<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT FACE="Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:11pt'><BR>
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<HR ALIGN=CENTER SIZE="3" WIDTH="95%"><B>From: </B>parminder <<a href="parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>><BR>
<B>Reply-To: </B><<a href="governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>>, parminder <<a href="parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>><BR>
<B>Date: </B>Wed, 12 Sep 2012 10:04:27 +0530<BR>
<B>To: </B><<a href="governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>><BR>
<B>Subject: </B>Re: [governance] Big Porn v. Big Web Ruling Could Spell Trouble for ICANN / was Re: new gTLDs<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE='font-size:11pt'><FONT FACE="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"> Avri and Ian,<BR>
<BR>
Will weigh in with more responses to your and other's comments later on when I have a little more time, but just to say for the present that;<BR>
<BR>
Firstly, IANA function that US may or may not hand over to someone else, in one issue. Another one, the main one in the present thread, is, whether IANA function is voluntary abandoned or not by the US (your choice of what should happen), ICANN as a US non profit would remain subject to all kinds of US laws vis a vis all its activities and policies. As a part of the .xxx judgement for instance, the courts can ask ICANN to revise all its domain name policies to bring them in accordance with US anti trust and possibly other laws (say IP related), in 'such a such', manner. ICANN would have no option other than to do it right away. You will agree that with the .xxxx case already been taken up, and its basic tenability also been accepted by a court ruling, such an eventuality is quite possible. This issue is at quite a different level than that of who exercises IANA authority, which you address in your emails. <BR>
<BR>
What is your response to this particular, i'd say, imminent, problem? How is ICANN going to deal with it? With the .xxx case already in the court, and many more expected in the present round of new gtlds, should ICANN not already be ready for what is certainly going to happen sooner or later?<BR>
<BR>
Secondly, if some kind of immunity for ICANN from US's domestic law through some kind of international agreement is part of your response to the above, and I may be being presumptuous in this regard, please note that Milton and even Lee do not seem particularly sanguine about it; not just about the likelihood that it would happen, but even of its desirability. They seem to prefer that ICANN remains subject to US laws, to ensure that some kind of public interest control is kept over it. What is your position on this?<BR>
<BR>
I mention this because evidently, even leaving my and Riaz's position in this thread of discussion out, there is much less general agreement on the way to go ahead, that may appear on the surface. And the disagreement is not just on the time frames involved or the path to follow, but, and this is most significant to assert, also vis a vis the eventual desirable state of affairs.<BR>
<BR>
I understand that the mainstream view in the US, including but not just limited to the 'establishment', is closer to that of Milton/ Lee's above view. We know that EU also rejects the possibility of ICANN being subject to no kind of jurisdiction what so ever. These facts will have to be kept in mind. <BR>
<BR>
Regards, parminder <BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE="Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial">On Wednesday 12 September 2012 04:02 AM, Ian Peter wrote:<BR>
<BR>
</FONT></SPAN><BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN STYLE='font-size:11pt'><FONT FACE="Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"> <BR>
Glad to see these comments by Lee and Avri. Here is my original proposition<BR>
<BR>
I come back to my original position and perhaps the only one where we<BR>
might get some agreement and also even the possibility of some action. The<BR>
authorisation role is completely unnecessary, whether carried out by USA or<BR>
UN or whatever. Please do not transfer it to another body just remove it.<BR>
The authorisation is based on recommendations involving a set of very<BR>
consultative and exhaustive procedures. Once the ICANN processes recommend a<BR>
change after these consultations, let that be the final authorisation.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I can perceive a situation where USA might actually accept that proposition,<BR>
consistent with increasing independence of ICANN. I cant see a situation<BR>
where they transfer their authorisation function to any other body.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Ian Peter<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</FONT></SPAN><BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN STYLE='font-size:11pt'><FONT FACE="Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"> <BR>
From: Avri Doria <<a href="avri@ella.com">avri@ella.com</a>> <<a href="mailto:avri@ella.com">mailto:avri@ella.com</a>> <BR>
Reply-To: <<a href="governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>> <<a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>> , Avri Doria <<a href="avri@ella.com">avri@ella.com</a>> <<a href="mailto:avri@ella.com">mailto:avri@ella.com</a>> <BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 18:28:28 -0400<BR>
To: IGC <<a href="governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>> <<a href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a>> <BR>
Subject: Re: [governance] Big Porn v. Big Web Ruling Could Spell Trouble for<BR>
ICANN / was Re: new gTLDs<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On 11 Sep 2012, at 17:33, Lee W McKnight wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</FONT></SPAN><BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN STYLE='font-size:11pt'><FONT FACE="Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"> <BR>
1) Free ICANN from hypothetical future USDOC/NTIA interference as Ian Peter<BR>
suggested. Which would also free ICANN from any other government mucking<BR>
around at that level, in a hypothetical future. Fine by me. Though I worry<BR>
ever so slightly that the latest example of ICANN's immaturity (oh yeah we<BR>
forgot to put in place a conflict of interest policy for folks about to<BR>
launch a new ICANN-created market) is not the last example of ICANN proving<BR>
in practice to be not really as grown up as ICANN, like most 14 year olds,<BR>
claims it is. Still, the proud parent USG will be more inclined to want to<BR>
let the organization grow up and graduate from needing a babysitter, than<BR>
accept other's suggestions that they would be better parents. Still we can<BR>
imagine...<BR>
<BR>
</FONT></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN STYLE='font-size:11pt'><FONT FACE="Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"> <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
This is basically the option I opt for.<BR>
<BR>
First work to get ICANN to grow up and deserve to move out of the house.<BR>
<BR>
Then convince the parents and all the aunts and uncles that it is time for<BR>
ICANN to move out on the NTIA house because they are gown-up and have a viable<BR>
life plan.<BR>
<BR>
I bet that if this state is reached, NTIA would even help. Just a guess, but<BR>
I'd bet. <BR>
<BR>
But first we ICANN folks (Staff, Board and Volunteers) gotta get a shit<BR>
together and grow up.<BR>
And start working on its life plan.<BR>
<BR>
I think progress is being made, but is it as good as we would like of course<BR>
not. <BR>
More time and participation is needed.<BR>
<BR>
I beleive it can happen.<BR>
In fact I expect that it eventually will.<BR>
I just have no idea how long eventually will take.<BR>
<BR>
avri<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
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