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<br>
<big>Hi Lee, <br>
<br>
We live in a world that is made of territorially defined and
bound jurisdictions. Plus, there is some international law/
jurisdiction, albeit rather weak. There are no doubts
exceptions, whereby territorial jurisdictions are able to, in
some way or the other, reach out to other parts of the world.
(This </big></font><font face="Verdana"><big>mostly </big></font><font
face="Verdana"><big>happens on the 'powerful gets his way'
principle, which is not to be recommended.) Admittedly, there
are more such instances in a more connected world today then
ever before, but they still are 'exceptions'. The problem is
that Milton and you are trying to propose a governance system
out of these exceptions. No, it doesn't work that way. We cant
work with exceptions, we have to work with the main system. And
the main system is broken, for which please see below...</big><br>
<br>
<br>
</font>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Monday 10 September 2012 02:11 AM,
Lee W McKnight wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:77A59FC9477004489D44DE7FC6840E7B135E25@SUEX10-mbx-08.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
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<div style="direction: ltr;font-family: Tahoma;color:
#000000;font-size: 10pt;">Hey Parminder,<br>
<br>
If Milton's signing off, I'll sign on for one more attempt.<br>
<br>
<span style="background-color: white;">My aim is not to
encourage lawsuits against the hegemon's proxy ICANN - but I
feel them coming on anyway, with the .xxx one just the tip of
the hegemon's melting iceberg. (I'm enjoying this 70s
flashback, don't get to use the word hegemon twice in one
sentence often these days : )<br>
</span></div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<big>You do agree that there are many lawsuits coming ICANN's way.
Are we prepared for the outcomes of these lawsuits, which are as
inevitable. How long will the US executive be able to put
persuasive pressure on the US judiciary to not do anything that
may rock the boat. I dont think the US judiciary is that
subservient, and</big><big>, sooner or later,</big><big> it will
decisively apply the law. In an email on 27th Aug, </big><big>responding
to my specific poser,</big><big> David Conrad developed the
scenario that may follow an adverse decision in the .xxx case. It
culminated in the 'possibility' of .xxx having to be removed from
the root. Are we prepared for this eventuality. Would the
legitimacy of the system not collapse right away! (I must mention
here that David thought it wont).<br>
<br>
There could be other impacts of an adverse decision in the .xxx
case; ICANN may be directed by the court to review all its
policies and actions vis a vis whatever the court thinks needs to
be done to ensure consistent application of US's anti-trust (or
any other) law. ICANN will </big><big>immediately </big><big>*have*
to do so....<br>
</big><br>
<big>Are you/ we prepared for this very plausible scenario?
Responsible governance systems and its stakeholders do not just
sit around and wait for such a 'very probable' eventuality to
happen. What is our response/ preparation to it? Does this not
suggest that the present system of oversight of, and jurisdiction
application over, ICANN is broken? </big><br>
<big><br>
Your and Milton's response to it seems to be: it does not matter
if ICANN has to do all the above things on directions of a US
court; we will simply tell all the outraged/ protesting people
from other countries that ICANN will also respond *exactly" in the
same manner if a court from their countries (India, Ghana, Nepa,
Indonesia, Brazil etc) were to find faults with ICANN and propose
remedial measures. <i>This will be a patently untrue statement</i>.
I can assure you that no one will buy it. So, I advice you, please
be ready for some other response. </big><br>
<br>
<big>As for your and Milton's claim that if ICANN is subject to
international law, the corresponding immunities that it will get
from national jurisdiction could be a problem. Yes, it could be a
problem for USians, since at present ICANN is subject to their
national law. It is not a such problem to people of other
countries. On the other hand, it should be obvious that any
international law will be framed in a manner that takes as much
account of ICANN functions as possible.<big> </big>Even if
specific legal provisions do not exist in some aspects, the
international system is capable of delivering on basis of
principles of natural justice and other such forms of
jurisprudence. </big><br>
<br>
<big>Thanks, but we can do without US law getting imposed on the
whole world, which, to me, is what your and Milton's critique of
'any' international system/ jurisdiction is all about.</big><br>
<br>
<big>parminder</big><br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:77A59FC9477004489D44DE7FC6840E7B135E25@SUEX10-mbx-08.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
<div style="direction: ltr;font-family: Tahoma;color:
#000000;font-size: 10pt;"><span style="background-color: white;">
<br>
So here's my free legal counsel for you: anyone anywhere can
play.<br>
<br>
Just as there was nothing to prevent Google or Yahoo, or
earlier Compuserve being taken to court in France or Brazil,
or Germany and Italy, and senior executives threatened, tried,
sentenced and/or subject to arrest if they set foot in those
countries - meaning even if they had no staff there, but just
passed through say the Frankfurt airport, or stopped in Rome
for a vacation - so too could ICANN staff be subject to
arrest; and ICANN fined for example, should it not obey a
court order in Pakistan or India or anywhere else. </span><span
style="background-color: white;"><br>
<br>
We can review the specific circumstances in the various cases
I mentioned in passing if you want, but basically the message
is as the Internet and Internet services pervades more deeply
into all nation's daily lives, then we should not be surprised
when ICANN is, eventually, challenged in various nation's
courts. Most readily where the organization has an
establishment, meaning staff as in Brussels and Australia. But
even absent staff presence, I could roll out 100 hypothetical
scenarios on how ICANN decisions could be challenged, in
Pakistani or Indian, or Brunei's, really any nation's legal
system.</span><br>
<span style="background-color: white;"><br>
Just cuz it's a non-profit with a SoCal HQ does not mean the
organization is exempt from - any - legal sanction, anywhere.<br>
<br>
Whether the balance of power over the administration of
changes to the root zone file, and/or the creation of this or
that new gtld, should be a matter of hundreds of national
jurisdictions, or handled through some form of global
collective action, is indeed the question. But while I am
practicing law without a license here, as the saying goes in
US domestic politics, at least I am making reality based
statements. Every single thing ICANN does could be challenged
in any national court. Winning a case, and/or explaining to a
judge or jury why a case was brought, is of course never a
sure thing. But the ability in principle of Indian courts to
rule on cases in which Indian citizens, businesses, and/or
government agencies claim injury, is not in any way impaired
by the location of ICANN's HQ.<br>
<br>
ICANN, on the other hand, if established under international
public or private law, could indeed gain various immunities,
which its actions do not now enjoy. Milton's 100% right to say
careful what we wish for here, since moving to a treaty or
international convention as the source of ICANN's legal
status, could just as easily make ICANN less responsive as
more responsive to national jurisdictions, and individuals.
ANY national jurisdiction. But that is a possibility and not a
certainty, as it would depend on the specifics agreed to by
nations signing onto that hypothetical treaty.<br>
<br>
If you don't believe me, just ask any practicing international
(private) lawyer. I'm guessing her answer would be another
question: how deep are your pockets? : ) But anyone with
enough money to make the challenge to for example - any - gtld
string, can follow ICANN procedures, or they can turn to their
own national courts. Although those courts might find it
annoying if they are dragged into the middle of an arcane
dispute if remedies from within the ICANN system were not
exhausted first.<br>
<br>
Unfortunately, like I said some time back, this whole dialogue
has gotten - more or less nowhere - since apparently it is
more fun to flash back to the 80s or hegemonic 70s than try to
make sense of what should be done next, to align ICANN and
other elements of Internet governance more closely with all of
the global communities that are affected by those decisions.<br>
<br>
Since there has been no new or original suggestions made, then
we do seem to be stuck in a time warp. A domestic US
non-profit corporation, albeit one that strives mightily to -
should I say sucker, or invite? : ) - people from around the
world to do the heavy volunteer lifting to keep the global net
up and operating, is the main game in the global Internet
governance village, still.<br>
<br>
Seeing as apparently noone has a better idea, or has even
concrete suggestions on how to get from here to there, there
being a more globally equitable future, then yeah we are
stuck. Bummer.
<br>
<br>
Or maybe, I repeat again, this dialogue, while at times fun,
really suggests it is time to get serious about Norbert's
enhanced cooperation task force idea to figure a way forward.
Since none of us are managing to do any better, absent that.
imho. If we are counting on the ITU to do so in
December....well I got a few virtual bridges for sale that are
more solid. Better to give the (IGF-responsive) task force
idea a shot, I suggest.<br>
<br>
Lee<br>
<br>
</span>
<div style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-size: 16px;">
<hr tabindex="-1">
<div style="direction: ltr;" id="divRpF808551"><font
face="Tahoma" color="#000000" size="2"><b>From:</b>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org">governance-request@lists.igcaucus.org</a>] on behalf of
parminder [<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, September 09, 2012 2:30 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Milton L Mueller<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:governance@lists.igcaucus.org">governance@lists.igcaucus.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] Big Porn v. Big Web
Ruling Could Spell Trouble for ICANN / was Re: new gTLDs<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Thursday 06 September 2012
10:42 PM, Milton L Mueller wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">Parminder, your responses are
degenerating beyond the point where it is worth
responding.</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
You are just getting desperate, Milton...<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">You seem to be more interested in
playing rhetorical games than in reaching agreement
or improving understanding.
</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Meaning, rather than simply agreeing with your most
untenable proposition about parity of application of
jurisdiction over ICANN between US and all other 191 states.
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">I will point out the reasons I
say these things and then suspend any further
communication with you on these issues</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
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<blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom:
5pt;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span style="">[Milton L
Mueller] Any law from ANY jurisdiction
constraining or dictating ICANN’s action
would have global effect, insofar as the
global Internet relies on ICANN to
administer the DNS.</span></i></b></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
Milton, In face of clear facts to the contrary, you
continue to claim that EU's, India's, Ghana's, all
of 192 government's, jurisdictions have similar
implication and impact on ICANN. I dont think I need
to labour to disprove this patently absurd
proposition.
<span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:
20.25pt; text-indent: -0.25in;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Wingdings;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span style="">Ø<span
style="font: 7pt "Times New Roman";">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size:
11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">Read my sentence, which is a
conditional statement and says that if "any law
from any jurisdiction"
</span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:
20.25pt; text-indent: -0.25in;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Wingdings;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span style="">Ø<span
style="font: 7pt "Times New Roman";">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size:
11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">could "constrain or dictate
ICANN's action" it would have global effect.
</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Your above statement - 'If' any law from any jurisdiction
'could' constrain or dictate ICANN's action, it would have
global effect - says nothing at all other that that 'ICANN's
actions have global effect', something which no one
disputes. What other meaning does this sentence carry?<br>
<br>
What is under disputation is - laws from '<b><i>which</i></b>'
jurisdiction can constraint or dictate ICANN's '<i><b>global</b></i>'
actions? You say that laws from all 192 country
jurisdictions have the 'same' (or at least similar) effect
as from US's jurisdiction of 'constraining or dictating
ICANN's <i><b>global</b></i> action'. This is what I call
as a
<i><b>patently absurd proposition. </b></i><br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
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style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73,
125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">But just to continue with the
present discussion on the .xxx case, even if the ICM
registry was * not* US based, the porn industry
majors could/ would have brought the case against
ICANN for instituting .xxx (since the registry would
of course have serviced domain name demands from the
US among others). ICANN would still be forced to
defend itself in the case, and if it lost the case
to annul or modify .xxx agreement.
<span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:
20.25pt; text-indent: -0.25in;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Wingdings;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span style="">Ø<span
style="font: 7pt "Times New Roman";">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size:
11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">I have asked you two questions
related to this that you have steadfastly ducked:
</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
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<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:
20.25pt; text-indent: -0.25in;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:
20.25pt; text-indent: -0.25in;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Wingdings;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span style="">Ø<span
style="font: 7pt "Times New Roman";">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size:
11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">1) Do you think ICANN should be
immune from antitrust? Yes or no.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Of course ICANN should be subject to all kinds of public
interest laws, as every entity should be - anti-trust, but
also others, like those aimed at preserving and deepening
public domain..... ( thus being prevented from giving off
generic names like school, kid, beauty, cloud etc as private
tlds).<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
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<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:
20.25pt; text-indent: -0.25in;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:
20.25pt; text-indent: -0.25in;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Wingdings;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span style="">Ø<span
style="font: 7pt "Times New Roman";">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size:
11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">2) What stops such a case from
being brought in the EU? ICANN has offices in
Brussels, and its "service" or operations could be
considered global, thus in the EU. </span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
First of all, you are cleverly skipping examples of India,
Ghana and Bangladesh that I used, and only employing EU's
case becuase ICANN has an office there... Your argument can
be challenged simply on this ground, what about the other
countries, especially the developing ones where ICANN
chooses not to have an office. (Equity, Milton, equity, dont
lose sight of this simple democratic value!)<br>
<br>
On the other hand, even if ICANN has a Brussels office, this
fact does not put EU's jurisdiction over ICANN anywhere
close to a similar level to US's. Apart from the fact that,
if the push comes to shove, ICANN can simply close or shift
Brussels office, offshore offices have often claimed lack
of control over and accountability for parent bodies
decisions vis a vis the jurisdictions in which they are
located. (This is well known, but if you want examples, I
can give them.)<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<div style="border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt;
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<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:
20.25pt; text-indent: -0.25in;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">It does not take a political
scientist to understand that the same is not true
vis a vis the jurisdiction of any other of 192
countries.
<span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:
20.25pt; text-indent: -0.25in;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Wingdings;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span style="">Ø<span
style="font: 7pt "Times New Roman";">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size:
11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">You have not made any argument
to explain why this is true. You have merely
asserted it.
</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
No, I did make a clear argument using the scenario of an
.xxx related case being brought in a Bangladesh court. Pl
see my last email to which you respond. But you completely
ignored that argument.
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<div style="border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt;
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none; -moz-border-right-colors: none;
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<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:
20.25pt; text-indent: -0.25in;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:
20.25pt; text-indent: -0.25in;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Wingdings;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span style="">Ø<span
style="font: 7pt "Times New Roman";">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size:
11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">The US antitrust case is in
fact no different from an antitrust case that
might be brought in the EU,
</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Completely wrong. For such a case brought in the EU, even if
.xxx registry was based in EU, (1) ICANN is not obliged to
defend the case (2) even if .xxx was to lose the case, it is
the registry that will have to renege from the ICANN
agreement, ICANN would have to do 'nothing'. However if the
case is lost in the US, ICANN itself has to undertake
certain actions- and also keep the judicial verdict in mind
for future actions - something which is incongruent with
ICANN's global governance status. That is the point.
<br>
<br>
On the other hand, and I said this in the previous email as
well, which you seem to read selectively, even if .xxx
registry was not in the US, the porn industry could still
have brought the case to a US court against ICANN- .xxx
agreement, which is simply not possible vis a vis any other
country jurisdiction. <br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
<div style="border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt;
border-style: none none none solid; border-color:
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none; -moz-border-right-colors: none;
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none; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;">
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:
20.25pt; text-indent: -0.25in;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:
20.25pt; text-indent: -0.25in;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Wingdings;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span style="">Ø<span
style="font: 7pt "Times New Roman";">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size:
11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">If indeed ICANN were engaged in
restraint of the domain name trade in conjunction
with a EU-based</span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:
20.25pt; text-indent: -0.25in;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Wingdings;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span style="">Ø<span
style="font: 7pt "Times New Roman";">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size:
11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">registry, the effect would be
exactly the same in both cases. ICANN's status as
a California Corp.
</span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:
20.25pt; text-indent: -0.25in;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Wingdings;
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span style="">Ø<span
style="font: 7pt "Times New Roman";">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size:
11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">makes no difference here.
</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
see above<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class="WordSection1">
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none; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;">
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:
20.25pt; text-indent: -0.25in;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span></p>
snip<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span
style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span
style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">A</span>nd if it
indeed is already subject to 192 jurisdiction, even
efficiency, since you dont recognise issues of
equity and democracy<span style="color: rgb(31, 73,
125);"></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-right: 0in;
margin-bottom: 12pt; margin-left: 20.25pt;
text-indent: -0.25in;">
<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Wingdings; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span
style="">Ø<span style="font: 7pt "Times New
Roman";">
</span></span></span><span style="font-size:
11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">You lost me here. I am the one
in favor of democracy (e.g., election of ICANN
board), you are the one in favor of control by
states.
</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I am glad to have an elected board if you can assemble the
electorate in a manner that is equitous and then ensure fair
polling. Please tell me your proposal. As for 'control by
the states' I am happy to have any kind of direct democracy
not only in IG space but also all other spaces of global
governance (your view on this please). And till we have it,
instead of one country dictating to the world,
representational democracy will do (while all efforts at
national and international level should be kept up to see
that these purported 'representatives' are indeed
democratically so). Imperfect democracy and representativity
cannot be taken as an excuse for perpetuating hegemony and
one-country dictatorship.
<br>
<br>
with regards<br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<br>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
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rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><br>
<br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
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