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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Thursday 06 September 2012 10:42 PM,
Milton L Mueller wrote:<br>
</div>
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Parminder,
your responses are degenerating beyond the point where it is
worth responding.</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
You are just getting desperate, Milton...<br>
<blockquote
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
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You seem to be more interested in playing rhetorical games
than in reaching agreement or improving understanding. </span></p>
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</blockquote>
<br>
Meaning, rather than simply agreeing with your most untenable
proposition about parity of application of jurisdiction over ICANN
between US and all other 191 states. <br>
<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
will point out the reasons I say these things and then
suspend any further communication with you on these issues<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New ;color:#1F497D","serif"">[Milton
L Mueller] Any law from ANY jurisdiction
constraining or dictating ICANN’s action would have
global effect, insofar as the global Internet relies
on ICANN to administer the DNS.</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
Milton, In face of clear facts to the contrary, you continue
to claim that EU's, India's, Ghana's, all of 192
government's, jurisdictions have similar implication and
impact on ICANN. I dont think I need to labour to disprove
this patently absurd proposition.
<span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:20.25pt;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0
level1 lfo1">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span
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</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Read
my sentence, which is a conditional statement and says
that if "any law from any jurisdiction"
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:20.25pt;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0
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</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">could
"constrain or dictate ICANN's action" it would have global
effect.
</span></p>
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</blockquote>
<br>
Your above statement - 'If' any law from any jurisdiction 'could'
constrain or dictate ICANN's action, it would have global effect -
says nothing at all other that that 'ICANN's actions have global
effect', something which no one disputes. What other meaning does
this sentence carry?<br>
<br>
What is under disputation is - laws from '<b><i>which</i></b>'
jurisdiction can constraint or dictate ICANN's '<i><b>global</b></i>'
actions? You say that laws from all 192 country jurisdictions have
the 'same' (or at least similar) effect as from US's jurisdiction of
'constraining or dictating ICANN's <i><b>global</b></i> action'.
This is what I call as a <i><b>patently absurd proposition. </b></i><br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220ED52@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu"
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style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">But just to continue with the present
discussion on the .xxx case, even if the ICM registry was *
not* US based, the porn industry majors could/ would have
brought the case against ICANN for instituting .xxx (since
the registry would of course have serviced domain name
demands from the US among others). ICANN would still be
forced to defend itself in the case, and if it lost the case
to annul or modify .xxx agreement.
<span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
have asked you two questions related to this that you have
steadfastly ducked:
</span></p>
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</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">1)
Do you think ICANN should be immune from antitrust? Yes or
no.</span></p>
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</blockquote>
<br>
Of course ICANN should be subject to all kinds of public interest
laws, as every entity should be - anti-trust, but also others, like
those aimed at preserving and deepening public domain..... ( thus
being prevented from giving off generic names like school, kid,
beauty, cloud etc as private tlds).<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220ED52@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
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style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
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<!--[if !supportLists]--><span
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</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">2)
What stops such a case from being brought in the EU? ICANN
has offices in Brussels, and its "service" or operations
could be considered global, thus in the EU. </span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
First of all, you are cleverly skipping examples of India, Ghana and
Bangladesh that I used, and only employing EU's case becuase ICANN
has an office there... Your argument can be challenged simply on
this ground, what about the other countries, especially the
developing ones where ICANN chooses not to have an office. (Equity,
Milton, equity, dont lose sight of this simple democratic value!)<br>
<br>
On the other hand, even if ICANN has a Brussels office, this fact
does not put EU's jurisdiction over ICANN anywhere close to a
similar level to US's. Apart from the fact that, if the push comes
to shove, ICANN can simply close or shift Brussels office, offshore
offices have often claimed lack of control over and accountability
for parent bodies decisions vis a vis the jurisdictions in which
they are located. (This is well known, but if you want examples, I
can give them.)<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220ED52@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
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0in 0in 4.0pt">
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style="margin-left:20.25pt;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0
level1 lfo1"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">It does not take a political scientist to
understand that the same is not true vis a vis the
jurisdiction of any other of 192 countries.
<span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:20.25pt;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0
level1 lfo1">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span
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"Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">You
have not made any argument to explain why this is true.
You have merely asserted it.
</span></p>
</div>
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</blockquote>
<br>
No, I did make a clear argument using the scenario of an .xxx
related case being brought in a Bangladesh court. Pl see my last
email to which you respond. But you completely ignored that
argument. <br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220ED52@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
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0in 0in 4.0pt">
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style="margin-left:20.25pt;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0
level1 lfo1"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:20.25pt;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0
level1 lfo1">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span
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</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The
US antitrust case is in fact no different from an
antitrust case that might be brought in the EU,
</span></p>
</div>
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</blockquote>
<br>
Completely wrong. For such a case brought in the EU, even if .xxx
registry was based in EU, (1) ICANN is not obliged to defend the
case (2) even if .xxx was to lose the case, it is the registry that
will have to renege from the ICANN agreement, ICANN would have to do
'nothing'. However if the case is lost in the US, ICANN itself has
to undertake certain actions- and also keep the judicial verdict in
mind for future actions - something which is incongruent with
ICANN's global governance status. That is the point. <br>
<br>
On the other hand, and I said this in the previous email as well,
which you seem to read selectively, even if .xxx registry was not in
the US, the porn industry could still have brought the case to a US
court against ICANN- .xxx agreement, which is simply not possible
vis a vis any other country jurisdiction. <br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220ED52@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
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style="margin-left:20.25pt;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0
level1 lfo1"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
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level1 lfo1">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span
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</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">If
indeed ICANN were engaged in restraint of the domain name
trade in conjunction with a EU-based<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:20.25pt;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0
level1 lfo1">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span
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</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">registry,
the effect would be exactly the same in both cases.
ICANN's status as a California Corp.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:20.25pt;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0
level1 lfo1">
<!--[if !supportLists]--><span
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</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">makes
no difference here.
</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
see above<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:855077AC3D7A7147A7570370CA01ECD220ED52@SUEX10-mbx-10.ad.syr.edu"
type="cite">
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0in 0in 4.0pt">
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:20.25pt;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0
level1 lfo1"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
snip<span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
style="color:#1F497D">A</span>nd if it indeed is already
subject to 192 jurisdiction, even efficiency, since you dont
recognise issues of equity and democracy<span
style="color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
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</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">You
lost me here. I am the one in favor of democracy (e.g.,
election of ICANN board), you are the one in favor of
control by states.
</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I am glad to have an elected board if you can assemble the
electorate in a manner that is equitous and then ensure fair
polling. Please tell me your proposal. As for 'control by the
states' I am happy to have any kind of direct democracy not only in
IG space but also all other spaces of global governance (your view
on this please). And till we have it, instead of one country
dictating to the world, representational democracy will do (while
all efforts at national and international level should be kept up to
see that these purported 'representatives' are indeed democratically
so). Imperfect democracy and representativity cannot be taken as an
excuse for perpetuating hegemony and one-country dictatorship. <br>
<br>
with regards<br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<br>
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