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On Saturday 16 June 2012 12:12 AM, Milton L Mueller wrote:
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<p class="MsoNormal">I really dont find any real difference between
what I said you say, and what you claim you say. Ok, lets say, you
think US law is the best form of political oversight, given the present
circumstances.<span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Courier New"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">[Milton
L Mueller] Ah, now I see why what I am saying drives you crazy.
</span></i></b></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Courier New"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">You
are confusing two fundamentally different things: “political oversight”
and the law ICANN is incorporated under.</span></i></b></p>
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<br>
The law under which ICANN is incorporated can determine and limit what
ICANN can do or not do. BTW, if it indeed does not so determine, and
I have asked this question a thousand times, why then not let ICANN be
incorporated under international law. Why do all the arguments change
when we transit from US law to international law. <br>
<br>
And if you want to know of a practical instance; I was reading about
the ICANN's decision last year to do away with registry-registrar cross
ownership restriction (BTW a most retrogressive decision!), and I found
frequent mentions of things like ' as we discussed with competition
authorities'. First of all I would like to know from the people more
closely involved, which competition authorities did ICANN talk to. I
take it to be US government's because I know of no international level
competition authority. Apparently, the inputs from US's competition
authorities helped ICANN take this most retrograde decision. I think
that competition authorities of many other countries - perhaps even of
India- would not have advised in favour of such a bad decision, which
as I would separately discuss, would now lead to privatisation of
important bits digital lingua and work against competitive practices in
the domain name industry. <br>
<br>
However, though the above shows how US laws and their application may
indeed not be the best for ICANN, I simply refuse to get into this
argument, whether British law (cant but be reminded of the colonial
period) or US's or Japan's is better in some way than my own country's
law or the international law. I simply refuse to be subject to any
other country's laws, better or not. Period. Milton, can you honestly,
say, if you were not a US citizen, you would have accepted such
arguments in favour of subjecting an global infrastructure to US law?<br>
<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Courier New"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Political
accountability has less to do with which jurisdiction ICANN is
incorporated in than you think. The best form of _political_ oversight
is ICANN’s own MS processes, which are transnational, assuming we make
the Board more accountable through a better appeals process and
membership.</span></i></b></p>
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<br>
I did ask you to propose the entire model for this, which then we may
be able to discuss.<br>
<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Courier New"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">
In other words, the polity is global, and political accountability
means that ICANN makes and enforces policies that its global
constituents want,</span></i></b></p>
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<br>
Here, again, Milton, I am unsure how exactly you see things. I have
heard you say often that ICANN must not look at anything but technical,
operational and financial criteria, and not get into public policy
issues, which, although minimal, need to come from an external
environment. Now, are you suggesting that ICANN directly does its
public policy too? If so, please give more details about how this will
work. <br>
<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Courier New"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">that
its representative processes are actually representative and its
elected officials get thrown out if they do the wrong things.
California corporation law is merely a mechanism for giving it a legal
personality </span></i></b></p>
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<br>
If it *merely* is to give ICANN legal personality, why cant we obtain
that *mere* legal personality from international law, and do a host
country agreement..... Would make so many people happy, no. <br>
<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Courier New"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">and
making it follow certain procedural rules. Yes, it does make a
difference that it is in the US rather than, say, Luxembourg or
Tanzania, but that should not affect the policies it adopts through its
own processes. Once you cut the cord to the US Commerce Department, the
fact that it obtains its legal personality in California is not all
that relevant.
</span></i></b></p>
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<br>
Milton, you know that any US non profit, under contract with Dept of
comm. or not, is subject to all laws, court diktats etc of the US...
why are you glossing over this clear fact, which has been discussed so
much here. <br>
<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Courier New"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Courier New"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">You are saying US law is more accessible and
offers better accountability than international law to non US people!!!
What a high-handed claim to make!
<span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Courier New"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">[Milton
L Mueller] nothing is more high-handed and inaccessible than
international law, my friend.</span></i></b></p>
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<br>
Not more than US law for non US people??? When would US citizen learn
to think a bit more globally, I mean think globally in a way that is
decent to all. <br>
<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Courier New"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">
When have you ever used international law to do anything important for
yourself or other people?</span></i></b></p>
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<br>
Havent used US law either. International law is used to configure
national institutions in many good ways (national women machineries in
many countries for instance). Now that we are confronted with the
uniquely global phenomenon of the Internet, about which response would
indeed need to be faster etc, we should be able to devise international
law and institutions accordingly, In an earlier email, I mentioned how
international trade law, and even private international arbitration on
trade matters, is being increasingly and very frequently used (I know
of so many cases involving India just over the last year). No reason
why we cant make innovations in the IG space as well. <br>
<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Courier New"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">
I see a few African dictators convicted of war crimes by the ICJ 10
years and millions and millions of dollars in court costs after the
fact.
<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Courier New"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Are you sure you will like to seen saying that
kind of a 'silly' thing (a term you use often :) ). May we just have
the basic decency to ask non US people if this is what they think :).
<br>
<br>
<span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Courier New"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">[Milton
L Mueller] Sure. Ask anyone you like. But provide a real basis for
comparison, i.e., the comparison is about legal personality and not
political oversight, and don’t wriggle out of the issue by contrasting
US law with something that doesn’t exist.
</span></i></b></p>
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<br>
Never the one to wriggle out, my friend. But cant see why what is not
there cant be created.... we are taking about new international laws
and institutions here, arent we. And while we are on the subject of
comparing things with completely unknown and non existent things, you
have been wriggling out of most internationalisation discussions by
mentioning some very vague and unclear stuff about trans-nationalism.
Perhaps you yourself are embarrassed to offer real next steps etc in
this regard, so exotic the concept is, in many ways. On the other hand,
I myself, with sympathy for pragmatic movement towards
transnationalism, did suggest an oversight body with national or
regional reps but looking at innovating how their selections process
can be broadened within the systems that they come from. <br>
<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Courier New"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Courier New"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Courier New"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I
propose a multiple-choice survey question to be circulated among
multinational domain name service operators located in developing world
countries:
</span></i></b></p>
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<br>
The constituency are *people*, not the industry that is regulated by
ICANN. Many people close to ICANN seem to always get this thing wrong.
And among people, in general, I am happy for you to do a survey if they
prefer to be subject to their own country law, international law as
required, and are happy to do with US law. Please stop selling US law.
It isnt the best, while it would not have mattered even if it were.
Democracy is quietly deeply engrained ideology and culture now a days,
though, what happens and get said in IG spaces do keep alarming me...
parminder <br>
<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Courier New"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Courier New"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Would
you prefer that ICANN be incorporated under
<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Courier New"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">a)
California corporation law,
<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Courier New"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">b)
an unspecified international organization host country agreement
developed by a collection of governments guided by a new international
treaty you don’t know the content of, which hasn’t been tested in
adjudication, and which won’t be in place for 10 years;
<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Courier New"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">c)
Indian corporation law
<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Courier New"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">d)
Chinese corporation law
<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Courier New"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">e)
Russian Corporation law or
<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Courier New"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">e)
the International Court of Justice in the Hague.<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Courier New"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 5.25pt;"><b><i><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Courier New"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Go
ahead and ask. I’d be as interested in the results as you. We’d all
probably learn something.
</span></i></b><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><b><i><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Courier New"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
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