<div>Matthias, very interesting message, I very much agree. Thanks for the reference of the article. </div><div><br></div><div>Norbert:<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:collapse;color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">im my mind there </span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:collapse;color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">is no question that whatever freedom of expression issues there </span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:collapse;color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">may be with nudity restrictions on Facebook, the issue of webmaster </span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:collapse;color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">liability is a freedom of expression problem of a much more serious </span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:collapse;color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">kind.</span></div>
<div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:collapse;color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:collapse;color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">MM: Norbert, I agree with you on the importance of liability. Clear and reduced liability of intermediaries is something we are trying to push with the Brazilian Civil Rights Framework, to avoid the chilling effect. The battle will take place in Congress soon. But, on the other hand, I think we cannot minimize the importance of the parameters of "good behavior" set by these global platforms, such as FB. I have a younger sister, and it amazes me how the Internet for younger generations is restricted to platforms like FB and apps. They carry content to these platforms in a way that they are the ones to intermediate digital reality for them. I think that rules established on ToRs are able to influence and modulate, very subtly, cultural ideas, such as the idea of morality. And the importance of this cannot be underestimated and it justifies the discussion of this topic, as much as the topic of intermediaries. </span></div>
<div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Sala: <span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:collapse;color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"> What if facebook was merely trying to comply with US laws and other countries laws that expressly prohibit obscenity.</span></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:collapse"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:collapse">MM: Sala, you are taking a commercial/juridical stance. I am taking a political stance. Two points. First, I do not think that is up to FB to give concreteness to a notion of nudity or obscenity. This is a very complicated debate, of public interest, that cannot be carried out by the board of company alone, whose role is, naturally, to maximize profit and minimize risks. Second, I personally do not care to which country law they are complying with. My point is that they are enforcing a FB policy norm that does not echo laws and common sense in Brazil and this interpretation is going against the fight of feminist movements and movements fighting for sexual rights here. We already have our internal disputes with conservative movements, as was pointed out by Jac, when he mentioned the Azeredo Bill. We do not need this external push from FB giving a restrictive interpretation of what is obscene and what is moral. It just reinforces the conservative forces we are trying to fight. So, FB juridical compliance with some country's law is translating into a political setback here. </span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:collapse"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:collapse">Of course, more countries with a more conservative approach to sexual rights could argue the opposite, that FB disrespects local moral standards. What is the solution? It can't be one size fits all, otherwise we will only see ankles of women in FB. Fragmentation on service in each jurisdiction? I don't think this should be the way... But I think that, definitely, this should be a theme for global discussion.</span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:collapse"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:collapse">Badouin, thanks! I appreciate. We will keep in touch.</span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:collapse"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:collapse">Best,</span></font></div>
<div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:collapse">Marília</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#222222" face="arial, sans-serif"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:collapse"> </span></font></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 4:46 AM, Matthias C. Kettemann <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:matthias.kettemann@uni-graz.at" target="_blank">matthias.kettemann@uni-graz.at</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<font face="Arial">Dear all <br>
<br>
since Facebook's "Abuse Standards" were leaked in February we know
according to which policies Facebook policies content. I've summed
at the discussion here: <a href="http://internationallawandtheinternet.blogspot.com/2012/02/where-humor-overrules-hate-speech-and.html" target="_blank">http://internationallawandtheinternet.blogspot.com/2012/02/where-humor-overrules-hate-speech-and.html</a>.
<br>
<br>
There are a number of issues involved. One is that prima facie and
in purely legal terms a social networking company can choose to
censor certain content, if its users have agreed to submitting to
this censorship, as part of the terms of service to which they
submit to when creating an account. <br>
<br>
But there are limits to this: A company cannot engage in arbitrary
censorship. Further, as soon as social network providers are so
successful that their networks are a "quasi-public sphere" they
lose, it can be argued, the right to use terms of service to limit
international standards of freedom of expression. The more
successful and public a service is, the fewer restrictions may be
allowed. <br>
<br>
As I've heard pointed out, Facebook pursues something of a
'college morality'. Sex is bad, but violence is ok. The "Abuse
Standards" bear this out. <br>
<br>
Back in February I wrote in my blog: <br>
<br>
</font><font face="Arial"><span style="text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:18px;color:rgb(102,102,102);text-transform:none;font-size:13px;white-space:normal;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;word-spacing:0px"><span style="line-height:22px"></span></span></font>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial">"Among pictures which are
not allowed, we find those showing
"Any OBVIOUS sexual activity [...] Cartoons/art included".Users
are also not allowed to "describe sexual activity in writing,
except when
an attempt at humor or insult."<br>
<br>
"Digital/cartoon nudity" is not ok, but "Art nudity" is
fine. People “using the bathroom” are not allowed, neither are
"[b]latant (obvious) depiction of camel toes and moose
knuckles".
</font><font face="Arial"><br>
<br>
</font><font face="Arial">Facebook also bans "[s]lurs or racial
comments of any kind", hate
symbols and "showing support for organizations and people
primarily known for violence." But the Guidelines caution that
"[h]umor overrules hate speech UNLESS slur words are present
or the humor is not evident." </font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial">
Since the importance of Facebook as an international forum of
aggregation and
articulation of ideas is growing, the leaked document amount to
what it
believes should be an international moral consenus on allowed
content. This
would be problematic as the document is not free of bias and
should be vetted
more carefully against international law on freedom of
expression. With regard
to the generally excepted exceptions from freedom of expression,
however,
most of the standards pass muster. <br>
<br>
[...]
</font><font face="Arial"><br>
<br>
Content violative of human rights of others will always exist.
Social network
providers are obliged to protect their users from that content
but at the same
time must ensure that they do not infringe freedom of expression
unnecessarily.
</font><font face="Arial"><br>
<br>
What Facebook should now do is officially publish the Abuse
Standards, clarify
the moderation process, and start a vigorous debate among its
users on the
international standards of freedom of expression."
</font><font face="Arial"><u></u><u></u></font></p>
<font face="Arial"><br>
For more, see <br>
<a href="http://internationallawandtheinternet.blogspot.com/2012/02/where-humor-overrules-hate-speech-and.html" target="_blank">http://internationallawandtheinternet.blogspot.com/2012/02/where-humor-overrules-hate-speech-and.html</a><br>
<br>
Kind regards<br>
<br>
Matthias<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Am <a href="tel:31.05.2012%2009" value="+13105201209" target="_blank">31.05.2012 09</a>:01, schrieb Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro:</font><div><div class="h5">
<blockquote type="cite"><font face="Arial"><br>
<br>
</font>
<div class="gmail_quote"><font face="Arial">On Thu, May 31, 2012
at 5:15 PM, Jac sm Kee <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jac@apcwomen.org" target="_blank">jac@apcwomen.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
</font>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><font face="Arial">
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----<br>
Hash: SHA1<br>
<br>
hi all,
</font><font face="Arial"><br>
<br>
a glimpse into how FB implements its censorship policies in
practice:
</font><font face="Arial"><br>
<a href="http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/02/22/low-wage-facebook-contractor-leaks-secret-censorship-list/" target="_blank">http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/02/22/low-wage-facebook-contractor-leaks-secret-censorship-list/</a>
</font><font face="Arial"><br>
</font>
<div><font face="Arial"><br>
In those countries, the people make their laws through the<br>
> parliament and one can say that they are legitimately
exercising<br>
> their sovereign right to determine what is
"acceptable" versus what<br>
> is "not acceptable" - do we then dare say that they
are wrong.<br>
> Every country has the sovereign right and the people
therein the<br>
> sovereign right to determine for themselves what is
"public<br>
> morality".<br>
</font>
</div>
<font face="Arial">actually, the state's duties to protect
public morality is precisely<br>
what provides legitimate cause of governments to intervene
and create<br>
more laws around censorship of the internet - and this needs
a closer<br>
and more critical analysis than accepting as is. e.g. in
brazil, the<br>
problematic azeredo bill was first pushed under economic
arguments<br>
(preventing financial fraud) - didn't work. but when it was
pushed<br>
under child protection arguments, it almost went through
without a<br>
hiccup and galvanised a lot of support (which also resulted
in a huge<br>
protests - but different story).<br>
<br>
</font>
</blockquote>
<div><font face="Arial">There are two opposing schools of
thought and maybe more, one holds the view that what is true
in the real world must hold true in the virtual world.
Paraphrasing that would mean that laws that are applicable
in real time should be applicable in the internet. The other
believes that there should be separate laws in real life and
separate laws for the Internet. Every event/transaction has
to be analysed according to its own merits so that the
danger of painting everyone with the same brush is reduced.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"> </font></div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><font face="Arial">
pornography is another obvious one, but then what does this
constitute<br>
and how is it defined can be a problem - as can be seen the
FB<br>
scenario. not the first time they have come across problems,
e.g. they<br>
are notorious for blocking photographs of women
breastfeeding. compare<br>
this against e.g. time magazine's recent controversial cover
of a<br>
woman breastfeeding, which is okay under US laws - so,
lowest common<br>
denominator internationally?</font></blockquote>
<div><font face="Arial">This, I would respectfully submit is not
the correct test.What is culturally acceptable in Miami,
Florida, US is not the same as in Qatar, Malaysia etc. To
dictate to them what their public morality won't buy us any
ground as far as advocacy for freedom of expression is
concerned and only serves to alienate without educating and
giving them an opportunity to learn and grow. See the tests
that the US Supreme court used in the Miller case.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"> </font></div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><font face="Arial"> this would mean anything less than e.g.<br>
fully closed face and ankles and wrists would be
unacceptable. that<br>
doesn't quite make sense either.<br>
<br>
</font>
</blockquote>
<div><font face="Arial">That was never said. For the record, the
discussions have been about namely the following:-</font></div>
<div>
<ol>
<li><font face="Arial">Is the right of freedom of expression
an absolute right? Is it an unfettered right?</font></li>
<li><font face="Arial">Does the right of freedom of
expression come with responsibilities?</font></li>
<li><font face="Arial">Who should be responsible when it
comes to the Internet?</font></li>
<li><font face="Arial">Are there exceptions under
International law?</font></li>
<li><font face="Arial">What are those exceptions?</font></li>
<li><font face="Arial">Are there instances where the
exceptions have been abused?</font></li>
<li><font face="Arial">How can civil society advocate
responsibly?</font></li>
</ol>
<div><font face="Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"><br>
</font></div>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><font face="Arial">
apc has been doing a research on examining how internet
regulation and<br>
regulation of sexuality goes hand-in-hand, and it's thrown
up some<br>
interesting points. from e.g. international aid for
infrastructure<br>
that comes encumbered with policy requirements and setting
national<br>
agendas on e.g. the issue of child pornography, to the
contentious<br>
geopolitical negotiations around sexual speech, health,
rights and<br>
citizenship. more info: <a href="http://erotics.apc.org" target="_blank">http://erotics.apc.org</a><br>
<br>
i've also been reading the conversations around EC and
democratization
</font><font face="Arial"><br>
of IG on this list with interest. and the thing that bugs me
about<br>
looking at democratization starting from national democratic
processes<br>
is that the potential of the internet to facilitate
democratic<br>
participation and deliberations is precisely because it is
currently<br>
still somewhat slippery from complete state control, as
opposed to<br>
e.g. broadcasting media and books and streets. </font></blockquote>
<div><font face="Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"> I think that when making a broad
assertion that you give specific examples so that there can
be discussion and debate.</font></div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><font face="Arial">
so i am reluctant to<br>
say that states should ahve oversight and negotiate it from
there.<br>
</font></blockquote>
<div><font face="Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">There is some misunderstanding. In any
sovereign jurisdiction, civil society, private sector and
the state each have their place. The foundation of
multistakeholderism stems from the basic notion that the
governments, private sector and civil society have clear
functions. What is enhanced cooperation domestically within
a nation and what does it look like outside the country?
What should it look like?</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><font face="Arial">
although i understand that global governance and oversight
is<br>
different from national, but when states become the highest
hierarchy<br>
of authority, then my point of entry for engagement as civ
soc would<br>
be from that level. it's not something i am optimistic
about..<br>
</font></blockquote>
<div><font face="Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<font face="Arial"><br>
anyway, 2 cents,<br>
jac<br>
</font>
<div>
<div><font face="Arial"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
>
</font><font face="Arial"><br>
><br>
> What FB is doing will potentially impact the way
that younger<br>
> generations<br>
>> will perceive liberty (including body
expression and sexual<br>
>> liberty) and morality. And, in my country, FB
is actually being<br>
>> more conservative than traditional media,
endangering the<br>
>> progress we made on recent decades when it
comes to body<br>
>> expression women's rights and sexual rights.<br>
>><br>
><br>
><br>
>> Is it facebook that is being conservative?
Afterall, they are<br>
>> merely trying to comply with the laws of the
land. I think that<br>
>> if people have an issue, they should take it up
with their<br>
>> respective Parliaments and have it debated.
These comments are<br>
>> restricted to the "Freedom of Expression" but
when it comes to<br>
>> "Privacy" and "misuse" of information and data
- I have different<br>
>> views.<br>
>><br>
><br>
><br>
>> I do not feel comfortable to place this sort of
decision on FB's<br>
>> hands, with no chance of democratic debate,
with no chance to<br>
>> scrutinize these policies they impinge on
users.<br>
>><br>
>> These are good discussions and Turkey and
Thailand and the US<br>
>> make<br>
> fascinating studies.<br>
><br>
>> Best, Marília<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>>> Some basic conclusions: a) rights,
such as freedom of<br>
>>>>> expression,<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Why would one who uses FB think they
can express themselves<br>
>>>> outside of the FB ToS/AUP?<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> are being<br>
>>>>> restricted by the same platforms
that are praised and known<br>
>>>>> for<br>
>>>> enabling<br>
>>>>> their exercise; b) there is a
privatization of Internet<br>
>>>>> regulation,<br>
>>>> subtle,<br>
>>>>> based on contracts (terms of use)<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Would you argue that Internet companies
have NO ToS?<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> , but yet, dangerous; c) I see no
adequate<br>
>>>>> forum where we should take this
issue to be analized in a<br>
>>>> participatory and<br>
>>>>> balanced way in the global arena.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Nor should there be IMHO.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> -- Cheers,<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> McTim "A name indicates what we seek.
An address indicates<br>
>>>> where it is. A route indicates how we
get there." Jon<br>
>>>> Postel<br>
>>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> -- Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala<br>
>>><br>
>>> Tweeter: @SalanietaT
<a>Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro</a> Cell:<br>
>>> <a href="tel:%2B679%20998%202851" value="+6799982851" target="_blank">+679 998 2851</a><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> -- Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade FGV Direito
Rio<br>
>><br>
>> Center for Technology and Society Getulio
Vargas Foundation Rio<br>
>> de Janeiro - Brazil<br>
>><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
<br>
</font>
</div>
</div>
<font face="Arial">- --<br>
Jac sm Kee<br>
Women's Rights Policy Coordinator<br>
Association for Progressive Communications<br>
<a href="http://www.apc.org" target="_blank">www.apc.org</a>
</font><font face="Arial"> | <a href="http://erotics.apc.org" target="_blank">erotics.apc.org</a>
| <a href="http://www.takebackthetech.net" target="_blank">www.takebackthetech.net</a><br>
Skype: jhybeturle | Twitter: jhybe<br>
</font></blockquote>
</div>
<font face="Arial"><br clear="all">
</font>
<div><font face="Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<font face="Arial">-- <br>
</font>
<div><font face="Arial">Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">Tweeter: @SalanietaT</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"><a>Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro</a></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">Cell: <a href="tel:%2B679%20998%202851" value="+6799982851" target="_blank">+679 998 2851</a></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"> </font></div>
<div><font color="#222222" face="Arial"><span style="line-height:16px"><br>
</span></font></div>
<font face="Arial"><br>
</font>
</blockquote>
<font face="Arial"><br>
</font>
</div></div><pre cols="72"><font face="Arial">--
Univ.-Ass. Mag. iur. Matthias C. Kettemann, LL.M. (Harvard)
Institut für Völkerrecht und Internationale Beziehungen
Karl-Franzens-Universität Graz
Universitätsstraße 15/A4, 8010 Graz, Österreich
T | <a href="tel:%2B43%20316%20380%206711" value="+433163806711" target="_blank">+43 316 380 6711</a> (Büro)
M | <a href="tel:%2B43%20676%20701%207175" value="+436767017175" target="_blank">+43 676 701 7175</a> (mobil)
F | <a href="tel:%2B43%20316%20380%209455" value="+433163809455" target="_blank">+43 316 380 9455</a>
E | <a href="mailto:matthias.kettemann@uni-graz.at" target="_blank">matthias.kettemann@uni-graz.at</a>
Blog | <a href="http://internationallawandtheinternet.blogspot.com" target="_blank">internationallawandtheinternet.blogspot.com</a>
--
Mag. iur. Matthias C. Kettemann, LL.M. (Harvard)
Teaching and Research Fellow
Institute of International Law and International Relations
University of Graz
Universitätsstraße 15/A4, 8010 Graz, Austria
T | <a href="tel:%2B43%20316%20380%206711" value="+433163806711" target="_blank">+43 316 380 6711</a> (office)
M | <a href="tel:%2B43%20676%20701%207175" value="+436767017175" target="_blank">+43 676 701 7175</a> (mobile)
F | <a href="tel:%2B43%20316%20380%209455" value="+433163809455" target="_blank">+43 316 380 9455</a>
E | <a href="mailto:matthias.kettemann@uni-graz.at" target="_blank">matthias.kettemann@uni-graz.at</a>
Blog | <a href="http://internationallawandtheinternet.blogspot.com" target="_blank">internationallawandtheinternet.blogspot.com</a></font></pre>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br>Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade<br>FGV Direito Rio<br><br>Center for Technology and Society<br>Getulio Vargas Foundation<br>Rio de Janeiro - Brazil<br>