<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>Since discussion advances with evidence and logic, let's take the next steps with facts and analysis.</div><div><br></div>Quoting from below, in reverse and various order.<div><br></div><div><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">There are system weaknesses that may be corrected with the transparent monitoring and review through the public feedback about the direct influence reflected on decisions of the external public services.</span></div></div></div></span></blockquote></div><div><br></div><div>_Long_ years - and years - of experience make clear that this most decidedly is not so.</div><div><br></div><div>Various reviews of the organization - over years - have spotlighted the problem of 'transparency,' of 'accountability.' Which are polite forms of identifying this mess, a mess which corrodes any real prospect for ICANN's legitimacy, which is itself fundamental to being an efffective public service.</div><div><br></div><div>Despite such 'review through public feedback,' as specified in the quote above, over those long years the problem has continued on. As said, acknowledged by those with intimate familiarity.</div><div><br></div><div>The above quoted statement is flatly contradicted by experience.</div><div><br></div><div><div><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">We can understand that what was happen and what were the reasons of the consequences but can’t use these examples [Bulgaria and Greece] as an evidence to justify and to rectify the problems.</span></div></div></div></span></blockquote></div></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: 15px;"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri, sans-serif"><br></font></div></div></div></span></div><div>As George Santayana said so quotably, "Those who will not learn history are condemned to repeat its mistakes." (Words to that effect.)</div><div><br></div><div>To suppose that we cannot use data as evidence is to cripple any serious effort to learn, so as to live in a better world.</div><div><br></div><div><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">every organization has its own culture which is not followed by any pre-written governance. </span></div></div></div></span></blockquote></div><div><br></div><div>ICANN is not 'any' - or an example of 'every' - organization. This organization supposedly serves the entire world community of seven billion. Either, over the by-now long years of its existence, it manages to find a stance - and culture - which legitimately serves the whole public, not a tiny coterie. Or ...</div><div><br></div><div><div><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Such criticism has negative influence on the enthusiasm of the volunteer activities and will leads to the situation of voluntarily burnout.</span></div></div></div></span></blockquote></div></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: transparent;"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><div><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">It does not mean that opens discussion about the criticism on the organization or to use harsh language and quoting hard bashing stances.</span></div></div></div></span></blockquote></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: 15px;"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#1f497d" face="Calibri, sans-serif"><br></font></div></div></div></span></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; ">If the thought quoted just above had also encompassed the full constituency supposedly served, including the states of the world, the full perspective might be clear.</div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; ">This list has for some time, and recently, been discussing the very real efforts by various empowered actors, such as some states, to find a suitable replacement for ICANN. Why do we think they may be so motivated?</div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; ">There are a number of reasons of course. And some of those reasons are not so savory. But certainly one sustaining reason perceives how ICANN serves a small group, not the interests of the world body politic. And of course therefore not necessarily the legitimate interests of each of those actors who have moved on to seek alternatives.</div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; ">The interest, in ICANN, by some of these empowered actors, among them some states, has _long ago_ 'burned out.' Their 'hard bashing stance' was clear. But instead of saying so forthrightly, instead of 'criticizing,' such as on a list of this sort, they simply have moved on, to find and erect alternatives.</div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; ">Speaking accurately is the one hope to move to a better place. Rather than keeping facts from view.</div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><br></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><br></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; ">As to ICANN volunteers, and staff: Imagine ICANN volunteers who have spent years, hard work and well done, only to find their work summarily dismissed and ignored. Those volunteers, and there are plenty of them, 'burned out' - long ago. Because ICANN did not correct itself - not because of any 'criticism' here, obviously. Staff, unfortunately, live with the aura of the organization from which they come.</div></div></div></span></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; ">I must apologize for not being able to converse in Urdu. I apologize because I may not be understanding accurately all the author of the post is trying valiantly to convey, in my language, English.</div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; ">However.</div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; ">Dialog ensues productively when we discuss ideas, the facts and the analysis around them. Not when the person is the focus. That threatens to become ad hominem - an attack on the person, which is both uncivil and disrupts the prospect for useful exchange among differing ideas.</div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; ">The above - and I strongly encourage throughout - addresses just the ideas, the facts and analysis surrounding (it is not addressed to the, or to a, person).</div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; ">David</div><div><br><div><div>On Nov 13, 2011, at 2:04 AM, Imran Ahmed Shah wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">David, every organization has its own culture which is not followed by any pre-written governance. Ex-ICANN staff was expressing the limitations of internal culture just to gain coverage of cultural weaknesses against the criticism about the flaws highlighted in recent discussion. It does not mean that opens discussion about the criticism on the organization or to use harsh language and quoting hard bashing stances. There are few paid staff member among the groups of hundreds of the volunteers. Such criticism has negative influence on the enthusiasm of the volunteer activities and will leads to the situation of voluntarily burnout.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">There are system weaknesses that may be corrected with the transparent monitoring and review through the public feedback about the direct influence reflected on decisions of the external public services. Bulgaria and Greek are two example that also reflecting the direct influence on the external public services of IDN ccTLDs. We can understand that what was happen and what were the reasons of the consequences but can’t use these examples as an evidence to justify and to rectify the problems.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Imran<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="border-top-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: blue; border-left-width: 1.5pt; padding-top: 0in; padding-right: 0in; padding-bottom: 0in; padding-left: 4pt; "><div><div style="border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-left-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-top-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding-top: 3pt; padding-right: 0in; padding-bottom: 0in; padding-left: 0in; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a> [<a href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>David Allen<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Sunday, November 13, 2011 02:17 AM<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[governance] Re: Is really Bulgarian Cyrillic .?? (.bg) similar to other Latin ccTLDs?<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">It has been said here more than once that ICANN is a corrupt organization.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">The details that have come out, below - the recent discussion in Bulgaria sketched and analyzed, below - are just one of the many smoking guns, with actual evidence beginning to peek through unmistakably in this case, despite attempts to obfuscate.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Only beginning to peek out, not the full story. But introductory of the the larger story.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">To perform its public service function, ICANN must serve the many interests evenhandedly. Instead, it has been beholden - in the policy outcomes actually implemented - to the interests of a tiny group of actors, those who fund it. That is corrupt.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">If ICANN were faithful to a bottoms-up process, that could be a start on public service that might have integrity. Instead, ICANN staff decisions - from whatever staff - have in the end dismissively ignored long and grueling bottoms-up work and have, on germane decisions, taken steps with prospect to enrich ICANN's tiny coterie of funders.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">The polite form of this complaint has become an increasingly angry shout, now ironically from ICANN's past master, the US government: "Be accountable." The more direct statement - as the failure of accountability has glared ever more bluntly over long years of demands for reform - is: "Corrupt."<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Not just governments - and yes of course, also numerous governments besides the US government - see this stinking mess. More than one individual who are privy, and at the very core of the beast, have acknowledged this corruption.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">This unacceptable state of affairs is sadly all too evident.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">David<o:p></o:p></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">On Nov 10, 2011, at 11:32 AM, Avri Doria wrote:<o:p></o:p></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><br><br><o:p></o:p></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Hi,<br><br>I reject the accusation of ICANN Staff Bashing. I see it as yet another new Political Correctness directive to limit freedom of speech. So sorry as much as I love many ICANN Staffers, I beleive that ICANN Staff, as corporate operational entity, is in error here and needs to be called on it. I did not say they were bad people.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><br>When the ICANN Staff makes implementation decisions that are contrary to policy decisions, they should be called on it. And no amount of Bashing Alleged Staff Bashers makes any difference to those discussions. Yes, I expect it is mostly due to decisions by Senior ICANN Staff, and that most staffers are just following orders for fear of losing their jobs in a bad economy. We have seen what happens in ICANN to those who disagree with senior management. So the poor bashed ICANN Staffers have my sympathy, but I do not beleive that I am the ICANN Staff Basher.<br><br>In this case, the implementation on harmful confusing similarity goes beyond what is written in the Policy and is establishing Policy. Those implementation decisions by ICANN has not been subject to adequate bottom-up process. And in some cases it goes beyond what is written in the recommendations. Also the restriction against 2 character IDN ccTLD is not in Fast Track document which says: "1. the string must be a minimum of two characters long (U-label), " <<a href="http://www.icann.org/en/topics/idn/fast-track/idn-cctld-implementation-plan-16nov09-en.pdf" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://www.icann.org/en/topics/idn/fast-track/idn-cctld-implementation-plan-16nov09-en.pdf</a>><br><br>Since this issue is not a topic in any of the ICANN groups as far as I know, e.g the At-Large where I think it belongs, I think it is good that as the problem becomes apparent to IGC, which is a major civil society aggregator, we discuss it here and that we take action on it. I am hoping that At-Large and other groups may take up the topic in the near future, that is why I think we should forward any letter we may write to the ALAC as well as to the ICANN Board.<br><br>avri<br><br><br><br>On 10 Nov 2011, at 09:58, Tina Dam wrote:<br><br><br><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Hi Avri, thanks for the report from me as well.<o:p></o:p></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></blockquote></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; color: rgb(12, 101, 12); ">But, I must say though that I am very surprised about your bashing ofICANN Staff. I obviously really do not like that and I don't find ituseful at all. If that is what this list is for then it certainly isnot for me.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; color: rgb(12, 101, 12); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; color: rgb(12, 101, 12); ">Avri, you of all people must know how hard ICANN staff works to followprocesses and work with all the different stakeholder groups to ensurefair implementation - yes that is, through the bottom-up processes.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; color: rgb(12, 101, 12); ">In terms of implementing the Fast Track Process this was done viacountless meetings and online public forums etc discussing andreviewing several proposed implementation plans that follows thepolicy papers and reports provided by the community. You were inseveral of those meetings.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; color: rgb(12, 101, 12); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; color: rgb(12, 101, 12); ">Certainly it is never possible to fulfill every single personsrequests, but I think we got really really close and so did others.Alternatively the implementation would have not been approved.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; color: rgb(12, 101, 12); ">About the restriction against any 2-char that resembles ASCIIcharacters - this has to do with the history of how country-codes aredecided upon. That is, via the ISO list. It may not be a very usefulrestriction, but a new ICANN process should not be against an alreadyexisting process. If this is to changed then an agreement must be madewith ISO that ICANN can use such 2-char combinations and that ISO isnot delegating them in the future.<o:p></o:p></span></div></blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; color: rgb(12, 101, 12); ">That may be more logically, but until this has been decided upon Ireally see no issue with ICANN having that limitation. I could neverbe certain, but I would guess the conversation on this list would havebeen completely different if an ICANN process would cause issues forexample for the ISO list and their future implementations on thatlist.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></blockquote><div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; color: rgb(12, 101, 12); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div></blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Tina<o:p></o:p></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 5:27 AM, Avri Doria <<a href="mailto:avri@acm.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">avri@acm.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Hi,<o:p></o:p></div></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">I was in Bulgaria for the domain.forun at which Rod spoke.<o:p></o:p></div></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Of course I do not know what Rod and Parvanov spoke about. But in other statements Rod, and Veni both made, they hid behind the bottom-up process and stated that it was rejected because of the bottom-up process and said that if the Bulgarians and Greeks wanted to change the rules they needed to go back to the ccNSO. It is amazing how many time they invoked bottom-up process to defend unpopular Staff decisions - it was the mantra of the day.<o:p></o:p></div></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Of course they never spoke of what bottom-up decisions they were talking about. Was there a bottom-up decision about what sort of things were confusing similar? Was there a bottom-up decision about a lack of transparency and the absence of an appeal of an arbitrary decision or an extended review procedure? No, these are ICANN implementation details. I was an observer of the ccNSO group that made recommendations, and these issues never came up. And for the GNSO, no matter how much the bottom-up process has requested an extended review for confusing similarity, it has been rejected by the ICANN Staff. ICANN Staff has decided on its own that it is supreme when it comes to harmful confusing similarity. I remember no bottom-up decisions giving ICANN staff supremacy in any topic, let alone this one.<o:p></o:p></div></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Another disturbing thing came up during these meetings. There was a new notion introduced by those who spoke for ICANN. I must note that I may have misunderstood it because some of it came from ICANN Staffers speaking in Bulgarian so I only heard a translation, but it sounded like the following:<o:p></o:p></div></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">In any review of Cyrillic or Greek characters, not only do they have to worry about existing LDH (letter digit hyphen) ASCII TLDs, but also myst complete with potential LDH ASCII that might be applied for some day. This notion was extend not only to un-allocated ISO 2 character designations but to any Cyrillic or Greek TLD that may look similar to LDH characters.<o:p></o:p></div></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">I.e. the notion I got out was that if the Cyrillic or Greek looks anything like ASCII, they can't have it. ASCII trumps all. While this is bad, considering the stretch ICANN Staff makes when making these decision (б looks like b - really???), it is really awful. From the discussions I understood this would apply in gTLDS as much as it does in ccTLDs.<o:p></o:p></div></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">If I understood correctly, this is a bad thing, and this issue of .бг is just the tip of the iceberg of a really serious defect in the ICANN process for new TLDs.<o:p></o:p></div></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">avri<o:p></o:p></div></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">On 9 Nov 2011, at 10:06, Kleinwächter, Wolfgang wrote:<o:p></o:p></div></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">As I can see from the ICANN website, ICANNs Rod Beckstrom had a meeting with the Bulgarian president Mr. Parvanow, the day before yesterday (November 7). Did the Bulgarian president raise the issue of .bg and what was Beckstroem response?<o:p></o:p></div></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Thanks<o:p></o:p></div></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">wolfgang<o:p></o:p></div></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></div></blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div></div></div></div></div></span></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>