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<DIV><SPAN class=643261021-24072011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>Hi
Milton,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=643261021-24072011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=643261021-24072011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>Strong
argument, wrong Michael?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=643261021-24072011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=643261021-24072011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>Good
luck with your Android.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=643261021-24072011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=643261021-24072011><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial>MG</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px" dir=ltr>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr lang=en-us class=OutlookMessageHeader align=left><FONT size=2
face=Tahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Milton L Mueller
[mailto:mueller@syr.edu] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, July 25, 2011 4:35
AM<BR><B>To:</B> michael gurstein; governance@lists.cpsr.org;
'parminder'<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [governance] Is This An Issue for Internet
Governance/Internet Human Rights?<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=WordSection1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Primitive,
eh? Nice. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Michael,
try to get over the shock you always seem to feel when confronted with a
rational, well-informed economic liberal; I know such creatures are not
supposed to exist in your world, they are all supposed to be Neanderthals, but
that’s just an artifact of the intellectual homogeneity of Canadian
universities. Don’t hold me responsible for that, and don’t impose your dated
stereotypes on this list.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Your
argument is that access to the Android marketplace is a precondition of modern
life. Withdrawal of that service by Google will, I guess, leave Taiwanese
denuded, bereft, cast out on a desert isle. Well,
bollocks.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">First, the
Android marketplace has hardly existed for a year and has not even come close
to establishing some kind of necessity. I have managed to live without it
until June 7, 2011, and have used it, oh maybe 3 times since.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Second,
many android apps can be accessed directly from their maker who (if it was
Taiwanese) could choose to comply with the local refund policy, e.g., a local
bank. The Android market simply aggregates them for convenience. Yes, there is
great power and benefit in that aggregation, but its absence is not a complete
roadblock to transacting. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Third,
there are competitive substitutes. Sorry for reminding you about that
“primitive” market stuff, but have you ever heard of the iPhone and the Apple
platform? Microsoft and Windows Mobile 7? HP and WebOS? I came very close to
not buying an Android phone, which would have opted me out of the Android
marketplace altogether. Yikes! I suppose if I had chosen an Apple phone Google
would have been depriving me of access to something I deserve, and thus guilty
of a crime . . . or, hmmm, am I the one committing a crime against Google? I
guess I’m just too primitive to figure that one out. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">--MM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: blue 1.5pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in">
<DIV>
<DIV
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; COLOR: windowtext; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; COLOR: windowtext; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
michael gurstein [mailto:gurstein@gmail.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, July
23, 2011 10:17 PM<BR><B>To:</B> governance@lists.cpsr.org; Milton L Mueller;
'parminder'<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [governance] Is This An Issue for Internet
Governance/Internet Human Rights?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Milton,</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: windowtext"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I
think there are two issues that militate against a primitive market approach
as you are articulating for this context/these examples. The first is
that since these are Internet based services/products they are by their nature
both of every jurisdiction and of no jurisdiction. For reasons various folks
have already mentioned the matter of what jurisdiction might have
regulatory/taxation authority is most definitely not a simple one as it
would be in the case of a physical product--and as is becoming quite
evident now is as requiring of a solution/response as global as the
services/products to which they would be applied.</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: windowtext"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">The
second issue reinforces the first which is that for a variety of reasons for
Internet based services/products such as those offered by Google quantity has
in fact become quality. The effeciencies and additional
effectivenesses/functionalities of these services/products have become so
successful that they have become constituative of a number of the
conditions for participation in daily life in the 21st century. The
absence of these services/products (with no reasonable alternatives available)
denies those without these "capabilities" the means to participate in
daily life as they might reasonably have expectations and to which they
have a natural right (life, liberty... peace, order.. etc.etc.-take your
pick)</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: windowtext"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">That
certain products/services in this time have come to achieve this status was
certainly not the intent of the providers. They were, as you indicated
below simply offering a product/service like thousands of
other industries. That they have been so successful with
their products/services that they have become a codition of modern life
while not something they wished for should be evident from the tale of the
individual attempting to deal with Google among other similar such
stories.</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: windowtext"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Combine
both of these and what you have are Internet based services/products
which are too big (necessary) to be allowed to fail (or be at the whim of any
single company) but yet for which there is no evident
jurisdiction within which they or the product/service can be
held account.</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: windowtext"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">That
is the challenge--and tossing free market primitivism at it isn't going to
make it go away.</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: windowtext"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Mike</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: windowtext"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in">
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; COLOR: windowtext; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> governance@lists.cpsr.org
[mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Milton L
Mueller<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, July 24, 2011 5:24 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
governance@lists.cpsr.org; parminder<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [governance] Is
This An Issue for Internet Governance/Internet Human Rights?</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Let’s
look at the details of the case. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Taipei
said it wanted Android platform users to comply with local regulations
regarding trial periods and refunds. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Google
said, if you force us to do that, we will withdraw Android market service
from Taipei. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">To me,
that seems fair enough. An agreement to disagree; a failure to transact.
That should be the end of the story. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Those
who are complaining about this result seem to be either disconnected from
economic reality or, at worst, hypocritical believers in having your cake
and eating it, too. Apparently, they want to tell Google: you CANNOT offer
services here on terms that you find necessary to meet your needs as a
supplier, but if you withdraw service we will whine about it and imply that
you should be forced to offer service in a locality you do not want to do
business in. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">There is
a very simple form of governance at work here, it’s called rational mutual
adjustments to local circumstances. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">The
Taipei government says, “we will impose regulations on what you do.” Google
says, in response, “well, those regulations are too costly to us, we shall
choose not to do business there.” This kind of choice occurs in thousands of
different industries in thousands of different ways. You don’t want to live
in a world in which that kind of adjustment is not possible.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">This
process of choice provides checks and balances on both players. If Google is
too unreasonable in its unwillingness to comply with local consumer
regulations, it will be barred from many markets and lose out to others. If
Taipei is too unreasonable in its demands on external businesses, it will
only prevent its citizens from getting access to many valuable products and
services. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Please
tell me what is a better alternative?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Should a
local government have the authority to tell a supplier based in another
country that it MUST offer its services in its locality, under terms and
conditions it does not find profitable or sustainable? Aside from being
impractical, it sounds self-evidently crazy to me, but if it doesn’t seem so
to you consider what would happen if that kind of obligation were
established. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">So,
there’s a company in Hong Kong offering 1 Gb broadband at US$20/month. I’d
like the Syracuse city govt to tell them they HAVE TO offer it to my home.
Never mind the fact that cost conditions in Syracuse, with US-style suburban
homes spaced hundreds of feet apart aren’t quite the same as HK high rises,
where one fiber can serve thousands of small apartments. I want my 1 Gb
broadband for $20, and I bet 80-90% of other Syracusans do too.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">OK, so
that involves non-transportable physical infrastructure, rather than virtual
services, so maybe you think it’s not a valid example. So let’s go with
local/national regulation involving a potentially global, virtual service.
Let’s say the national government of China says to Google, “we think you
have the best search engine so we want it here, but we want it to comply
with our censorship regime. So you MUST offer Google search here, but all
your servers serving the china market MUST be in the country, all your Gmail
accounts MUST provide backdoor access to the public security bureau, and all
search results MUST implement our censorship by allowing our censors direct
access to your results display process.” Under my preferred regime, Google
has the right to say, “sorry, no deal.” In the Parmindered world, what
happens? They MUST go in? <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">So here
is a more direct answer to this question:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Do Milton
and others who seemed to have great reservation about appropriateness of
Taipie city government's regulatory competence in that case still think,
after reading about the case of unilateral withdrawal of google service,
still think that users of these services should have no legal recourse with
accountable public governance entity?</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">[Milton
L Mueller] <o:p></o:p></SPAN></I></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></I></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">First,
they do have recourse. They can insist that their government apply local
regulations. This may drive the multinationals out altogether. Or they can
get their local government to avoid applying those local regulations, or to
adjust them, in order to gain access to the services. There are two parties
at interest here. There is no requirement to transact at all if either’s
needs are not met. </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><BR><BR>If local or national
governments should *not* be the entity that people should be able to turn
to, and these governments should *not* have the regulatory competence, who
should?</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">[Milton
L Mueller] <o:p></o:p></SPAN></I></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></I></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">As
usual, you over-dichotomize and -polarize the options. Our real disagreement
is on the nature and scope of the regulations. You seem to think that any
demand placed on a supplier by a consumer or a government is de facto
legitimate and right. I am saying that there are constraints. Suppliers of
services cannot be taken for granted as a natural resource, just sitting
there waiting to be milked. People produce Internet services, and the people
who produce them have legitimate incentives and needs that have to be met,
otherwise they will withdraw their services from the market (or die a slow
death in the market). Governments that assert controls and regulations in a
globalized economy have to face the fact that unfair or overly burdensome
regulations will lead private actors to withdraw from their market. Full
stop. Likewise, corporations who do things that lots of locally responsive
governments can’t allow them to do will be barred from many local markets,
limiting their growth and profit. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">What’s
wrong with that exchange? <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 5.25pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 5.25pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">--MM</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in"><P
class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>