If we take all the issues that are being discussed and peel off the layers and coatings/vehicles whether government or private, we will see that the underlying issue is:-<div><br></div><div><ul><li>How should power be controlled?</li>
<li>How can the interests of all be considered where no one gets marginalised in the process?</li></ul><div>Consider something like the social contract theory where John Locke develops the argument that people give up part of their rights to a sovereign in order to be governed? There are many jurisdictions where people have freely expressed their desire through the vote or revolution. Despite the diversity of governance systems and models - at the end of the day it is about power and control.</div>
<div><br></div><div>How should that power be controlled? In Locke's time, the "death of distance" was an alien concept. Imagine a clean canvas, how should power be shared?</div><div><br></div><div>These are my thoughts.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Sala</div><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 8:25 AM, michael gurstein <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com">gurstein@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
Paul,<br>
<br>
I'm not an expert on CIRA although at this point I should declare that I<br>
have been nominated (by a civil society organization) as a candidate for the<br>
CIRA Board!<br>
<br>
That being said I think your comments are based on mistaken assumptions and<br>
are overall somewhat unfortunate.<br>
<br>
As I understand the situation CIRA has an election among its members (those<br>
holding .ca registrations) for its governance body--its Board. There are 3<br>
ex officio members on a fifteen person Board--a representative of the<br>
overall regulator/policy maker (government); the Executive Director: and the<br>
founder/registrar (Canada's equivalent of John Postel)--quite normal I would<br>
have thought for this kind of agency.<br>
<br>
I'm not sure what standards of democracy you are using but in my limited<br>
observation this would seem to me by most conventional standards to be at<br>
least reasonably "democratic". Always remembering of course, that CIRA is<br>
only concerned with the 1.5 million or so .ca registrants--there are<br>
approximately 25 million Internet users in Canada whose overall Internet<br>
interests presumably are covered through the ordinary give and take of the<br>
(democratic) political system and for specialized purposes participation in<br>
forums such as ICANN, the IGF and so on.<br>
<br>
I would very much like to see Canada and Canadians more involved in ensuring<br>
a "democratic" Internet (however that might be defined), but at this point I<br>
wouldn't see CIRA as being the appropriate vehicle for that participation<br>
since its interests/mandate and constituency is far too narrow.<br>
<br>
Mike<br>
<div class="im"><br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a>] On Behalf<br>
</div>Of Paul Lehto<br>
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 10:36 AM<br>
To: Kerry Brown<br>
Cc: <a href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a><br>
<div class="im">Subject: Re: [governance] FW: TP: city government exercising policy on<br>
Google Applications / consumer rights / Consumer Protection Act / trial<br>
period<br>
<br>
<br>
</div><div><div></div><div class="h5">On 7/14/11, Kerry Brown <<a href="mailto:kerry@kdbsystems.com">kerry@kdbsystems.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> CIRA's board of directors is democratically elected by CIRA members.<br>
> Membership is free to anyone that registers a dot-ca domain. All<br>
> members get one vote regardless of how many domains they have<br>
> registered. There are three ex-officio non-voting appointed directors.<br>
> All voting directors are elected by the members. One of the ex-officio<br>
> directors is a representative of Industry Canada. The Canadian<br>
> government through Industry Canada plays an advisory role to the<br>
> board. The other non-voting directors are the CEO and John Demco the<br>
> founder of the dot-ca registry when it was operated by volunteers<br>
> working at UBC.<br>
<br>
Unless you are claiming that CIRA does nothing that affects or impacts<br>
users of the internet (as opposed to .ca registrants) the above membership<br>
structure is still quite undemocratic by completely disfranchising users.<br>
On top of that, the structure you identify heavily weights the right to be<br>
heard (via ex officio membership) to industry and the corporation and its<br>
founder. Anything more restrictive than one person one vote for ALL<br>
GOVERNED or affected is a system that disfranchises and creates an<br>
aristocracy (rule by a few or a subset of all) rather than a democracy (rule<br>
by all the people). It would seem that everyone would realize that despite<br>
the fact that a few .ca registrants are "ordinary folks", a system where<br>
only .ca registrants can be members and thus vote is a system that (1) gives<br>
votes to non-humans that are also non-voters in a real democracy (corporate<br>
registrants), and (2) is an aristocracy weighted in favor of those with<br>
above-average money and property (domain name<br>
registrants) and completely disfranchising users as a whole.<br>
<br>
I do realize that CIRA is touting that in the last year (i.e. in CIRA's 10th<br>
or 11th year of operation) CIRA was begun a general listening program and<br>
accepts, for the first time in its history, some types of feedback from mere<br>
non-voting users and others. Anything less than real democracy (like CIRA)<br>
is an animal which one may call anything they want, but that can't call it<br>
democracy. Certain aspects are "democratic" but it ain't democracy. I<br>
won't throw out a name myself because there's a risk it could be perceived<br>
as name-calling. But it is what it is, and what it is ain't democracy. It's<br>
delegation of governmental power to a basically unaccountable corporate<br>
aristocracy of some sort.<br>
<br>
I'd be happy to indulge you with the truly formalistic step of starting a<br>
new thread with a new name involving CIRA so as to not be "off topic" but I<br>
don't think (right now) that you should have to defend an entire thread<br>
based in significant part on your job or status with CIRA, even though that<br>
job is so coincidentally topical to how the conversation has evolved here in<br>
this thread. Please accept my assurances that I intend nothing in the way<br>
of a personal attack here in any way -- I'm firmly convinced you are a nice<br>
guy and intelligently got involved in CIRA in all good faith to be in the<br>
game of internet policy and rulemaking. My one and only basic objection is<br>
that, however, is just that the structure in which you got involved and are<br>
committed to remaining involved in is fundamentally undemocratic in very<br>
significant ways, and you defend those shortfalls based on values like<br>
efficiency that are classically associated with non-democratic practices of<br>
government.<br>
<br>
In a democracy, efficiency is OK as a value provided one very fundamental<br>
(and usually satisfied) precondition is met: That the end or goal of the<br>
project is consistent with the objectives and principles of democracy and<br>
self-government as opposed to aristocracy or plutocracy. That basic<br>
precondition is defeated the moment any level of government gives away its<br>
power and responsibility to a private person or corporation without<br>
retaining 100% of its oversight power AND providing all the standards and<br>
rules of operation such that it can be fairly said that even though "power"<br>
be delegated, it is really being exercised at the direction and control of<br>
the government, via those standards and rules. But as to the procedure of<br>
arbitration for example, the CIRA rule that no domestic or foreign law or<br>
legislation may be used in a CIRA arbitration even if all the parties and<br>
the arbitrator agree means (beyond any serious doubt) that CIRA arbitration<br>
procedure has broken completely free of democracy's control, and therefore<br>
lost the legitimacy that only democracy can provide.<br>
<br>
CIRA not being democratic, it's not appropriate to wish CIRA to be<br>
"efficient" in accomplishing its goals for governance, since those goals are<br>
not fully democratic. Here again, Harry Truman put it very well when he<br>
said of his corporate-supported opponent:<br>
<br>
"Hitler learned that efficiency without justice is a vain thing. Democracy<br>
does not work that way. Democracy is a matter of faith--a faith in the soul<br>
of man--a **faith in human rights.** That is the<br>
kind of faith that moves mountains--" Human rights is key because<br>
they are possessed without precondition by all humans, and equally so.<br>
Picking and choosing who gets a say (registrants, but not users) inevitably<br>
leads to either social discord or even violence, because it disrespects the<br>
humanity and interests of those whose voice is not recognized or heard.<br>
<br>
Paul Lehto, J.D.<br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div>Sala</div><div> </div><div>"Stillness in the midst of the noise".</div><br>
</div>