<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#333333">
<font face="sans-serif">While at it, I must respond to two more
issues raised by Milton<br>
<br>
One, about practicality of working 10000 tax jurisdictions. While
we do believe that there is a possibility of better coordination
through global treaties etc, a pat reply is: if global systems can
so aggressively be built to trace and obtain private IP related
entitlements vis a vis Internet based virtual flows/ exchanges of
thousands of corporations, why cant public entitlements be traced
and obtained. <br>
<br>
Second, Milton writes somewhere that his prime issue is with
regulation which is what this thread started with. Milton, are you
seriously against application of consumer protection law vis a vis
Internet based commercial transactions (the Taiwanese instance
that started this debate)? If not, who should make, apply and
enforce such law if not the local jurisdictions to which you seem
clearly opposed?<br>
<br>
I am completely unable to understand how someone can be arguing
against the local government's right (indeed, obligation) to
protect its citizens against economic or other injustices and
offences that may be caused through the use of the Internet just
because it is the Internet. Does this also extend to cyber crime?
If someone over and through the Internet causes damage to my data
and my laptop, or even its software, should I have no recourse?
What exactly are you driving at? <br>
<br>
Parminder <br>
<br>
</font><br>
On Wednesday 13 July 2011 07:52 PM, parminder wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:4E1DAA09.4030404@itforchange.net" type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
<font face="sans-serif">Phillipe (and Milton)<br>
<br>
Everyone agrees that there is a new situation and new forms of
tax regimes need to be worked out (while obviously means that,
as you say, old ones are difficult to work/ enforce) .... I did
not see anyone claim otherwise in the present discussion.
However, the newness of the situation and need for appropriate
response should not be used as an excuse to declare some part of
our social structure as out of bounds for taxes, polity and
public systems. This is the sole point of contention in this
debate. This is what Milton and Daniel seem to be trying to do.
<br>
<br>
Milton says 10,000 jurisdictions cannot work. He wants to keep
ignoring the fact that Michael, who initially raised the issue,
lee and I, have said that we should therefore work towards some
kind of global agreement to see that is most practical as well
as fair to all. Milton however does not come out with any
alternative system of taxation and legitimate regulation of
Internet activity while he keeps saying it is silly (BTW,
Milton, you have said it enough number of times now) that 10000
jurisdictions should apply. So, he, and apparently some others
here, want to simple use this 'new situation' opportunity to
declare an important and growing part of our social structure
and systems simply out of bound for </font><font
face="sans-serif">taxes, polity and public systems. Now, Milton,
if this is not so, can you specially </font>spell out what new
arrangements do you propose that are fair and just to all (yes,
including social and economic justice), instead of keeping on
vaguely referring to new publics or whatever it is. You especially
owe us your exact response to and recommendation for this new
situation, including the appropriate tax and regulation regime,
since you have been accusing Paul of abstractness, and saying that
you will only engage if clear facts are referred to, and accusing
some others, including me, of ducking real issues . So maybe it is
your turn to de-abstract and mention the new governance regime
that you propose. <br>
<br>
Parminder <br>
<font face="sans-serif"><br>
<br>
</font><br>
On Wednesday 13 July 2011 06:41 PM, Philippe Blanchard wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:B453D546-3A90-4433-B1E7-A6C381F82582@me.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">I follow-up Daniel's analysis.
In his example, he clearly demonstrates that we are in a situation for which the classical rules based on physical territory cannot apply. Eventhough those rules proved useful, they were designed more than 200 years ago (Beaumarchais- 24 January 1732 – 18 May 1799- worked on Intellectual property consideration and set the basis of main of our current IP laws).
We all know that those rules cannot longer apply as is and the question is then to review what is the scope that can embrace the fact we are moving, we buy "stuff " in one country to be used in another country... and when those "stuff" are intangibles, their materiality (or lack of) clearly conflicts with the classical, material rules we used to abide by.
I am afraid we cannot go further if we still try to cut&paste rules that were designed hundreds of years ago to the world we now live in. Internet governance and intangibles taxation require the creation (or the mobiilization) of a meta-structure, above the national levels... And for me, it needs to be a UN-type agency.
Philippe
On Jul 13, 2011, at 2:53 PM, Daniel Kalchev wrote:
Interesting discussion indeed.
What is an application? What you pay for, when you buy software? Aren't you paying for the right to use the application? How are taxes collected on rights to use? Who is taxed -- the party that gives the right, or the party that receives the right?
Does the application have physical location? Does it reside on my iPad flash storage and if it does, can I take it from there and put it in another physical place? Or does it reside "somewhere" in the Internet cloud?
What if the application is web based, "resides" and "runs" somewhere, but I "use" it here?
Could you also explain to me who collects taxes when:
Apple in California sold me the application.
I purchased it while in Oslo (Norvay), then used it while staying at the Frankfurt (Germany) airport and continued to use it back home in Varna (Bulgaria).
Internet does not have 'place' and it also does not do anything with 'physical' objects. Both these things are the foundation of the current taxation system.
Daniel
____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a>
To be removed from the list, visit:
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a>
For all other list information and functions, see:
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance">http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance</a>
To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.igcaucus.org/">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a>
Translate this email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a>
____________________________________________________________
You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a>
To be removed from the list, visit:
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a>
For all other list information and functions, see:
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance">http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance</a>
To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.igcaucus.org/">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a>
Translate this email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>