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There is a new version of the platform List-o (list-o.org,
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://sourceforge.net/projects/list-o/">http://sourceforge.net/projects/list-o/</a>) and it works with Mailman
using the Google translation system.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Julián<br>
<br>
<br>
El 08/06/11 07:40, Rui Correia escribió:
<blockquote
cite="mid:BANLkTinzLEJ06Hb7+=ThkQ80Uy95vsDFWA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">Hi What happened to the translation feature that the
list used to have, provided by by funredes? I admit I never really
looked much into that (actually can't remember - it was quite a
few years back), so I don't know how much human interaction it
required or whether it was wholly automatic. Carlos? Can you weigh
in on this? <br>
<br>
Surely by now that must be software to reroute postings to lists
via a translation engine such as Google Translator? It is not
ideal, but it is a solution and Google Translate has improved a
lot over the years.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
<br>
Rui<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2011/6/8 Ginger Paque <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:gpaque@gmail.com">gpaque@gmail.com</a>></span><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt
0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);
padding-left: 1ex;">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000"> <font face="Arial">Hmmm...
I have mixed feelings about this, even though it looks
like the title is MSism... Multilingualism :)<br>
<br>
While I firmly believe we need to have more discussions in
other languages, particularly Spanish, we need to be able
to communicate with the larger community, and the common
second language seems to be English.<br>
<br>
How can we manage both ideas?<br>
Saludos, ginger<br>
</font>
<div>
<div class="h5"><br>
On 6/8/2011 7:20 AM, Carlos Vera wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">Ya empezo el debate.. como lo
seguimos..<br>
<br>
Carlos<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2011/6/8 Roxana Goldstein <span
dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:goldstein.roxana@gmail.com"
target="_blank">goldstein.roxana@gmail.com</a>></span><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt
0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204,
204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">Genial esto, pero
si no empezamos a tener debate en otros idiomas no
vamos a cambiar las preocupantes tendencias de las
que se habla acá.
<div> Lo vengo diciendo siempre en todos los
espacios de la sociedad civil del IGF, con nada
de éxito.</div>
<div>Desde latino américa, Argentina
específicamente,</div>
<div>Roxana Goldstein</div>
<div><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>
<div>2011/6/8 parminder <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net"
target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>></span><br>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:
0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>
<div>
<div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#333333"> <font
face="sans-serif">Dear Bertrand,<br>
<br>
Thanks for engaging with this
discussion. I have always been very
keen to get a serious discussion
going on this subject, and rather to
the contrary of what you say, it is
the multistakeholderism (MS)
enthusiast who have run away from
probing questions both of (1) the
principled and logical basis of
their beliefs and stances and (2)
the precise working models of
governance that they propose. I hope
in this present discussion they, and
you, can answer such questions.<br>
<br>
I have quite often stated my
problems with MSism as it</font>
mostly gets spoken of and practised in
IG arena, including at the recent CoE
meeting during the panel discussion
moderated by you.<br>
<br>
Your email raises two specific issues,
the first one is <br>
<br>
"what I am missing in your very
critical comment ("<i>it is very much
the wrong direction</i>") is the
proposed alternative;" <br>
<div><br>
</div>
<font face="sans-serif">The
alternative is the original
corrective to the shortcomings of
representational democracy. This is
what is spoken of as deepening
democracy or what we may also call
as participatory democracy (though
not the anarchic versions of it
which suffer from the precise ill
you speak of - a real workable
alternative model). Its
institutional forms - existing and
those possible in the future - have
been well discussed in literature,
and there is enough stuff about
practical working models as well,
including some about the global
space. I am ready, in fact eager, to
have a specific discussion on this.
<br>
<br>
I have always engaged positively by
presenting proposals of working
models of what I (or we) want, and
what for us is taking democracy
forward rather than supplanting it.
We, as in my organisation, worked
with the Indian government delegates
to come up with a clear proposal on
how MAG for instance should be
constituted, which addresses the
negatives of MSism. This part of the
'Indian proposal' is enclosed, which
is also largely contained in the
contribution IT for Change made to
the process. Is it not specific
enough? Now, reversing the
'inquiring role' I am eager to know
what are your own views on it.<br>
<br>
The second issue your raise is
contained in the following part of
your email.<br>
<br>
</font>".......imperfect as they are,
aren't the experiences currently under
way presenting more potential for
broad participation, openness and
"deeper democracy" (to use your
formulation) than using only
intergovernmental interaction in the
UN or the G8 ? In a nutshell, what
would you like to see that would be so
different from what is being attempted
in the IGF, for instance, that it
would justify thrashing it instead of
perfecting it ?" <br>
<font face="sans-serif"><br>
First of all I agree that 'only
intergovernmental interaction in the
UN or the G8' is not at all a good
model, and it requires huge huge
improvements changes. This must be
obvious from my contributions to the
IGC and other forums. However, my
contention also is that MSism as
currently practised in the IG arena
may actually be making things worse.<br>
<br>
Deeper or participatory democracy is
about getting in voices that are
less powerful and less heard
otherwise into the political
processes. Can you honestly say that
this is what the MS model in IG is
doing currently? I do not think so.
I think it has become a cover or a
legitimising device for increased
influence on policy making of those
who are already very powerful, with
which I mean the big business</font><font
face="sans-serif"> in the digital/
IT/ Internet space. There are
numerous examples of this, and what
is more problematic is how such huge
transgressions to political and
democratic propriety </font><font
face="sans-serif">are routinely
responded to by 'deep silences' on
the part of</font> MSism upholders.
Such silences favouring the interests
of the powerful, as you will also see
from the Spanish protests (as also
earlier ones in the Arab world), are
the very anti-thesis of new democratic
processes that we would like to see
take root. Following are but a very
few examples of what MSism in IG space
is really showing up to be....<br>
<br>
1) Anyone who has seen MAG work know
who almost completely dominates the
discourse and the outcomes thereof. I
wont go into specific details here but
am happy to discuss this further if
you so want. Developing country gov
reps have consistently raised this
issue in their private conversations
about the IGF and the MAG. Very often
this is the first and the main issue
they raise, and I have to agree with
them.<br>
<br>
2) e G 8 forums, which despite our
protests remained what it was supposed
to. Then there is this French
presidents digital advisory council
made exclusively of big business.<br>
<br>
3) Two mega digital corporations, most
affected by the proposed regulation,
together practically wrote the net
neutrality legislation of the the
county which is the digital capital of
the world. One would, today, still
think it impossible that the top drug
company and the top private hospital
chain in the US 'openly' (lobbying and
pushing text secretively is a
different thing) come up with the
default health policy draft, even in
the US. This is an instance of the
kind of 'firsts' that the IG world is
contributing to our political systems,
and the MS discourse certainly has
something to so with it. <br>
<br>
4) The UN broadband commission was
headed by someone who has a practical
monopoly on a major country's telecom
business, and who acquired this
business by buying off the incumbent
public sector company through means
that have been severely questioned.
Again a first in the name of MSism.<br>
<br>
5) Closer home in India, some
proprietary software and digital
content companies, interested in the
huge public education 'market' of
India, quite ingeniously managed to
become the key and driving
participants of an 'officially'
mandated MS process of writing a draft
for India's 'ICTs in schools' policy.
The draft that came out was of course
on the expected lines. It took a huge
amount of work from organisation like
ours to get the drafting process
scrapped by the minister involved. But
such things have not stopped.... So it
is not for the joy of contrarinian-ism
that I offer critiques to MSism, this
has had central implications to my
organisation's political struggles.<br>
<br>
6) Dept of IT in India has a couple of
advisory groups consisting only of big
business reps apart form gov, and also
frequently holds consultations where
only these big business reps are
invited. (see for a recent meeting of
such kind <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.mit.gov.in/sites/upload_files/dit/files/MinutesofmeetingNationalRolloutofe-district2ndMay2011.pdf"
target="_blank">http://www.mit.gov.in/sites/upload_files/dit/files/MinutesofmeetingNationalRolloutofe-district2ndMay2011.pdf</a>
). This kind of stuff, thankfully,
still does not happen in any other
department in India. <br>
<br>
The instances are endless. So when you
say there are issues with MSism, to
quote your email, 'such as the risks
of capture, the weight of some actors,
the north-south unbalances and the
representation of the unrepresented' ,
one needs to know clearly what is
being done about them. Merely
mentioning them as a footnote is of
little use to those whom these issues
really bother. What I see is that
there seems not even the readiness to
debate these issues, much less do
anything about them, which to me
confirms my hypothesis regarding who
holds the reins of much what goes for
MSism in the IG arena.<br>
<br>
Also, another question that MSists
never seem to respond to is - are they
ready to have their countries governed
through the same kind of hazy MSism as
they recommend for global governance?
If not why this discrimination -
democracy at home, MSism abroad. Is it
because global democracy brings the
danger of global redistributions with
it, and MSism on the other hand helps
promote Northern businesses establish
even greater global dominance and thus
creates transfer channels in
directions opposite to what globally
democratic political systems will tend
to do. Is this not the actual reason
for Northern governments' enthusiasm
for MSism in the global IG arena (but
not at places where they themselves
make decisions), and what is really
behind the 'friendly governments'
discourse frequently heard on this
list. <br>
<br>
Happy to hear you responses to the
above and engage further. <br>
<br>
Parminder<br>
<font face="sans-serif"><br>
</font>On Thursday 02 June 2011 09:37
PM, Bertrand de La Chapelle wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">Dear
Parminder,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks for sharing the article.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Two points on your remarks:</div>
<div>- fully agree on "new
institutional possibilities of
participatory democracy" not fully
explored yet; probably new tools
can be invented;</div>
<div>- I know your reticences -
often voiced on the list -
regarding the current modalities
of "multi-stakeholderism" and some
of them do deserve attention (such
as the risks of capture, the
weight of some actors, the
north-south unbalances and the
representation of the
unrepresented); however, what I am
missing in your very critical
comment ("<i>it is very much the
wrong direction</i>") is the
proposed alternative; imperfect as
they are, aren't the experiences
currently under way presenting
more potential for broad
participation, openness and
"deeper democracy" (to use your
formulation) than using only
intergovernmental interaction in
the UN or the G8 ? </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In a nutshell, what would you
like to see that would be so
different from what is being
attempted in the IGF, for
instance, that it would justify
thrashing it instead of perfecting
it ?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Bertrand</div>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="80">--
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