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<font face="sans-serif">I think there is enough commonality about
what people consider under the Net neutrality (NN) rubric.
Norway's NN guidelines, and the recent NN decision by US's FCC
will make it clear.<br>
<br>
It is not at all true that in UK primarily download speeds is what
is meant by most when they speak of NN. For instance, the BBC
Director General's comments at
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/jan/19/mark-thompson-internet-bbc">http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/jan/19/mark-thompson-internet-bbc</a>
makes it clear. No idea why Roland should insist that the contours
of the debate are not 'relatively' clear in this regard.<br>
<br>
especially insidious is to link advocacy of NN to piracy. Quote
from Roland's earlier email <br>
<br>
</font>>Unfortunately, that might be what <b
class="moz-txt-star"><span class="moz-txt-tag">*</span>you<span
class="moz-txt-tag">*</span></b> think NN means, and for all
I
know it's the standard meaning in your country. It's absolutely not
what
<br>
>they mean when the UK press writes about it. (Think about it -
the biggest issue is restricting P2P and NNTP downloads of pirate
movies,
what "content >provider" is there who would pay the networks to
remove
that restriction?)
<br>
<font face="sans-serif"><br>
Roland, if when you hear p2p you just think piracy, that the
biggest value of the Internet platform from a progressive point of
view is lost on you. <br>
</font><br>
On Thursday 17 March 2011 12:37 AM, Roland Perry wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:pSxTW5vopQgNFAbm@internetpolicyagency.com"
type="cite">In message
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:AANLkTinDvjczk2sz7ifmwMXSXA0gvCNNObt38qrw48wF@mail.gmail.com"><AANLkTinDvjczk2sz7ifmwMXSXA0gvCNNObt38qrw48wF@mail.gmail.com></a>,
at 14:51:13 on Wed, 16 Mar 2011, Ivar A. M. Hartmann
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ivarhartmann@gmail.com"><ivarhartmann@gmail.com></a> writes
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Roland,
<br>
if there are different definitions used by different groups of
people,
<br>
wouldn't you want to use the definition Parminder referred to
when
<br>
you're communicating with the audience in this list?
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Even if the UK authorities allow the ISPs to be non-Neutral,
that's of little relevance to Parminder's issues because
"neutrality" has a different context.
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">I don't believe we're all from the UK
here, or are we?
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Nor are we all from Parminder's part of the world, with the issues
he's concerned about.
<br>
<br>
So I think we are in fierce agreement.
<br>
<br>
Roland.
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 13:02, Roland
Perry <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:roland@internetpolicyagency.com"><roland@internetpolicyagency.com></a> wrote:
<br>
In message <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:4D80B666.4070403@itforchange.net"><4D80B666.4070403@itforchange.net></a>, at
18:38:54 on Wed,
<br>
16
<br>
Mar 2011, parminder <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net"><parminder@itforchange.net></a> writes
<br>
>
<br>
>
<br>
>On Wednesday 16 March 2011 04:09 PM, Roland Perry wrote:
<br>
> In message <
<br>
>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:16BC5877C4C91649AF7A89BF3BCA7AB82C9BB6C34F@SERVER01.globalpartners.local">16BC5877C4C91649AF7A89BF3BCA7AB82C9BB6C34F@SERVER01.globalpartners.local</a>
<br>
> >, at 09:39:13 on Wed, 16 Mar 2011, Lisa Horner
<br>
> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:LisaH@global-partners.co.uk"><LisaH@global-partners.co.uk></a> writes
<br>
>
<br>
>> Meanwhile, this ?net neutrality summit? which it is
feared will
<br>
>> give rise to a 2 speed internet is happening in the
UK
<br>
today....
<br>
>> watch this space.
<br>
>
<br>
>>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2011/mar/09/isps-outline-stance-net">http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2011/mar/09/isps-outline-stance-net</a>
<br>
>> -neutrality
<br>
> There is already a 2 speed Internet.
<br>
> Pay $10 a month and get one speed, pay $50 a month and
get a
<br>
higher
<br>
> one.
<br>
>
<br>
>Roland, why dont you just accept, and not keep confusing
people,
<br>
that
<br>
>there is big structural difference between differing speeds
as per
<br>
what
<br>
>content user pays, and differing speeds as per what content
<br>
provider
<br>
>pays, and the Net neutrality issue deals with the second
issue
<br>
alone.
<br>
<br>
Unfortunately, that might be what *you* think NN means, and for
all
<br>
I
<br>
know it's the standard meaning in your country. It's absolutely
not
<br>
what
<br>
they mean when the UK press writes about it. (Think about it -
the
<br>
biggest issue is restricting P2P and NNTP downloads of pirate
<br>
movies,
<br>
what "content provider" is there who would pay the networks to
<br>
remove
<br>
that restriction?)
<br>
<br>
>You dont have to agree with the NN guys on what is right
and what
<br>
is
<br>
>wrong, but why keep muddying established definitions.
<br>
<br>
I would be very happy if there were differing words for the
various
<br>
differing "meanings". Unfortunately, there are many different
<br>
concepts
<br>
which are all given the same name (NN). What I'm trying to do
here
<br>
is
<br>
*agree* that there is this confusion, and that the outcome of
<br>
so-called
<br>
"Network Neutrality" debate in the UK is irrelevant to much of
the
<br>
rest
<br>
of the world, because it's a different thing that's being
debated.
<br>
<br>
> What people want is the $50 Internet for $10, and for
everyone in
<br>
> the country to be able to watch a High Definition[3] TV
programme
<br>
at
<br>
> once.
<br>
>No, that is not at all what NN advoactes want, and you know
that.
<br>
<br>
But it's what the UK NN advocates want, it was a UK-based
discussion
<br>
that was linked to.
<br>
<br>
Here's what I posted in another forum about NN, a few days ago,
hope
<br>
it
<br>
helps clarify things:
<br>
<br>
<quote>
<br>
<br>
Net Neutrality means different things to different people.
<br>
<br>
Here in the UK it's about throttling bandwidth hogs like P2P
and
<br>
iPlayer
<br>
in the busy hours.
<br>
<br>
In developing countries it's about Megabytes per dollar being
the
<br>
same
<br>
on fixed and mobile networks (fat chance of that in developed
<br>
countries either).
<br>
<br>
In some jurisdictions it's about blocking VoIP (but that tends
to be
<br>
an
<br>
incumbent nationalised telco protecting PSTN revenue and the
<br>
ability
<br>
to wiretap the calls, not bandwidth).
<br>
<br>
In the USA it means throttling specific sites which don't pay
you to
<br>
deliver their bandwidth-hogging content. (Although to some
extent
<br>
that's also the iPlayer issue in UK). And a suspicion that as
the
<br>
big
<br>
ISPs are owned by telcos, they might start blocking VoIP as
well.
<br>
<br>
[Although Skype video is an example of a site where the final
two of
<br>
the
<br>
above can get a bit entangled].
<br>
<br>
</quote>
<br>
--
<br>
Roland Perry
<br>
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