<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html;charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#333333">
<br>
<br>
Yrjö Länsipuro wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:BAY141-W1394637C1E08E30B04DB09FFE10@phx.gbl"
type="cite">
<style><!--
.hmmessage P
{
margin:0px;
padding:0px
}
body.hmmessage
{
font-size: 10pt;
font-family:Tahoma
}
--></style>Parminder,
<div><br>
</div>
<div> I have great respect for the outcomes of processes that
produced the great documents you mentioned, but the IGF is not such a
process. It is not a treaty conference, it is a forum for
multistakeholder policy dialogue. I agree, it's purpose is clearly
written in article 72 of Tunis Agenda. I'm all for implementing all of
it, but not for turning the IGF into a binding process expressly
excluded in article 77.</div>
</blockquote>
Yrjo/ All<br>
<br>
I havent ever heard one person argue for turning IGF into a binding
process. It is simply a strawman that is then used to swing to the
other extreme - reducing the IGF to merely an annual conference, and
thus my direct question - how is the IGF different from any annual IG
conference that any private actor(s) can hold? <br>
<br>
Earlier another bogey was used whenever a genuine discussion on the
present shortcomings of the IGF was sought as a necessary prelude to
coming up with the required improvements in the IGF. This bogey was
that if we even as much as mention any shortcoming, it will strengthen
the hands of those who want the IGF discontinued. (Strangely, this
argument was advanced by many actors who had opposed setting by the IGF
in the first place during the WSIS). Now that we know that IGF is
indeed in no danger of being discontinued, can we be more bold to
discuss its current shortcomings and under achievements to shape our
recs for its improvements. <br>
<br>
More than anyone else the proponents of MSism should recognise that
they cant play the game that it is either 'no tangible outcomes' or
'negotiated binding resolutions', when this binary simply doesnt
hold. If stakeholders are to be really an active part of policy
shaping process (a term used by Bertrand) it should be obvious that we
will need to put our belief in policy related documents that are
concrete enough to have influence, but less than binding policies
themselves - whether they are advisory notes, recs, reports on specific
issues, messages or whatever. It serves non-gov staekholder interests
more than anyone's else.<br>
<br>
It is also rather puzzling how, when there are just two days left for
inputs to be given to the WGIGF, we in the IGC are so reticent to take
up any purposeful discussion on the central issue of IGF outcomes. Also
cant understand why was there such vociferous demands to get CS
members into the WGIGF when we seem to have little to contribute vis a
vis the central issues of the discussion and mandate of the WG.<br>
<br>
Parminder <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:BAY141-W1394637C1E08E30B04DB09FFE10@phx.gbl"
type="cite">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Yrjö</div>
<div><br>
<hr id="stopSpelling">Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 00:05:58 +0530<br>
From: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a><br>
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:yrjo_lansipuro@hotmail.com">yrjo_lansipuro@hotmail.com</a><br>
Subject: Re: [governance] CSTD IX. Conclusions and recommendations<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Yrjö Länsipuro wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:BAY141-W12E56242ACCCA5A95F150FFE10@phx.gbl">
<style>
.ExternalClass .ecxhmmessage P
{padding:0px;}
.ExternalClass body.ecxhmmessage
{font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;}
</style>Dear
all,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Over the years, the view has been expressed time and again
that
the main outcomes of the IGF are those impressions, new ideas and
conclusions carried home by its individual participants, to be used by
them as input on whatever other internet-related fora (decision-making
or not) they are active.</div>
</blockquote>
Yrjo<br>
<br>
How would that be different from any global IG conference that any
private party can hold and many of them do get hled, from where the
participatants take home whatever they choose or not to take home, Is
then IGF just another global IG conference?<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:BAY141-W12E56242ACCCA5A95F150FFE10@phx.gbl">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I subscribe to this view. These thousands of individual
outcomes are much more effective than a piece of paper, painfully
negotiated before and and during the event, that nobody will read but
that will be a proof that IGF achieved "results", for those
bureaucrats and politicians who need something to put <i>ad actam</i>.</div>
</blockquote>
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and before that Magna Carta,
or the constitution of India of of Finland may as well be considered
painfully negotiated but largely useless pieces of paper. Your
statement just bespeaks a distrust of politics and governance, and this
is merely an one sided ideological position, contributing little of
substance to the real debate.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:BAY141-W12E56242ACCCA5A95F150FFE10@phx.gbl">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>At the same time, it does not hurt to try to go a step further
achieving conclusions at workshops and "messages" (as proposed by
Wolfgang) from the IGF itself. But these efforts should not take time
from the main purpose of the IGF. <br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Who decides what is the main purpose of the IGF? I think it is written
in the Tunis Agenda, as well as the recent UN General Assembly's
directions to improve the IGF towards some specific purposes.<br>
<br>
Parminder <br>
<blockquote cite="mid:BAY141-W12E56242ACCCA5A95F150FFE10@phx.gbl">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Yrjö</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<br>
> From: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="ecxmoz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:nb@bollow.ch">nb@bollow.ch</a><br>
> To: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="ecxmoz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a><br>
> Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 18:45:26 +0100<br>
> Subject: Re: [governance] CSTD IX. Conclusions and recommendations<br>
> <br>
> Jeanette Hofmann <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="ecxmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jeanette@wzb.eu"><jeanette@wzb.eu></a>
wrote:<br>
> <br>
> > I have tried to argue for more outcome oriented workshops.
They should <br>
> > define some form of a goal in their workshop proposal. Alas,
outcome <br>
> > orientation is a cultural issue as well. Many people in the <br>
> > international sphere tend to think in procedural terms.
Perhaps we are <br>
> > just a bit demanding in this respect?<br>
> <br>
> I think that it well-justified and quite necessary to be justly "a
bit<br>
> demanding in this respect".<br>
> <br>
> For some activity to be meaningful, it will quite generally need to<br>
> have some kind of output that becomes input for something else. Of<br>
> course, some of the potential results from discussions are of a
kind<br>
> that is not compatible with the idea of recording them in some kind<br>
> of formal "output" document, and that does not make those kinds of<br>
> informal outputs any less valuable.<br>
> <br>
> Greetings,<br>
> Norbert<br>
> ____________________________________________________________<br>
> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="ecxmoz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a><br>
> To be removed from the list, visit:<br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="ecxmoz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing" target="_blank">http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing</a><br>
> <br>
> For all other list information and functions, see:<br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="ecxmoz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance" target="_blank">http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance</a><br>
> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:<br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="ecxmoz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.igcaucus.org/" target="_blank">http://www.igcaucus.org/</a><br>
> <br>
> Translate this email: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="ecxmoz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://translate.google.com/translate_t" target="_blank">http://translate.google.com/translate_t</a><br>
> <br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="ecxmoz-signature">--
PK</pre>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
PK</pre>
</body>
</html>