<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;">Are more votes at the table, from sectors newly inserted around the table, desirable? practicable? Or might we postulate the question differently (hopefully with some further perspective):</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;"><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;">Do more views around the table contribute to better outcomes? But does an attempt to formalize this – by trying to escalate the views into votes – threaten the prospects?</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;"><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;">Evidence is clear that better-informed views bring better results. And – <i>done right</i> – adding views can be part of bringing better-informed results. But the ‘done right’ means everything depends on ‘process:’ Exactly how are these additional views brought to bear?</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;"><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;">As has also been variously noted, this – most fundamentally important – detail, re process, so far is effectively ‘missing in action’ from proposals on the table.</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;"><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;">But power, and its distribution, is an arbiter. As variously acknowledged, already (despite one earlier demurral).</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;"><br></span></div><blockquote type="cite"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;">From a kings perspective the interference of a parliament in his decisions was seen as unneeded …</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;"><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;">YES , THERE IS THE NUB.</span></div></blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;"><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;">A distant forebear, in my larger family, reportedly signed the death warrant of a king (which audacious act succeeded, for a time, but then the signer had to flee …) CS holds no power of the death warrant, or anything like coercive means.</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;"><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;">In fact, when we look back, we see that reaching Phase 4 at WSIS [as outlined in the original response, below] meant CS got a quarter of an hour – when states instead had hours and days to present. Even in the current moment, we see that (only) a couple individuals from CS will be chosen to give voice, upcoming. Does the process of choosing who ultimately speaks reflect the views of 6 plus billion users – users are our focus, right? (The WSIS history also included a case when the CS position was not checked with the group, as had been committed …)</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;"><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;">IGF was a vital step forward. But states, for the larger part, have been in a listening-post mode. And the private sector has not come out in force. (Fortunately, IGF has come into its own, through dint of great work, by many, so there is some institutional base from which something might proceed.)</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;"><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;">Nor is there evidence of the extant power equation shifting materially.</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;"><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;">It is not unreasonable to imagine: If there is – let’s put it in clear terms – overstepping, in a campaign to move to Stage 6 (ie, to voting power), some of those who hold the real power will not respond with a welcome. Could the proportional blowback even reduce or eliminate possibilities for widening the views considered?</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;"><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;">Of course, this is a realpolitik analysis. It does not address desirability of the more ‘revolutionary’ proposals on the table.</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;"><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;">But this, the normative, question has been addressed effectively below. Perhaps the question can be couched: Do we really want competing vectors for ‘representation’ of the user?</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;"><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;">How – in realistic detail – would such vectors, particularly CS, funnel up the views of six plus billion users? (And yes, though complexity increases, representation is the social mechanism evolved from the ancient past.) We can be sure that – if there ever were a vote for that seat – the scramble for control of the position would be beyond any imagining today. Certainly very far beyond any CS as now existing.</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;"><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;">Does the [new] ‘network’ save us from a ‘hierarchy’? For me anyway, this has been addressed by (the text also inserted below):</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;"><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;">The internet is a tool … [b]ut … the tools do not drive the democracy …</span></blockquote></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;"><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;">Not to mention that humans have been ‘networked’ for many millennia. Our social existence lies at the core of our being (which also is almost certainly hard-wired to be hierarchical).</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;"><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;">There is a phrase, ‘technological determinism,’ intended to encourage appreciating that humans, not machines, make outcomes. What of course is also important is how we co-evolve with the machines and the new capabilities they may bring.</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;"><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;">Which can bring us back to a central question: What are the processes by which more useful viewpoints can be brought to the decision table?</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;"><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;">Certainly the connectedness of the Internet tool may extend the reach of ancient social bonds. But almost certainly the issues will, in the end, be quintessentially human. How do we fruitfully get more views to a table that will ultimately meld them all into a conclusion?</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;"><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;">Those who propose ‘a new regime’ surely are on a quest aimed to make our lives better. Rather than the ‘revolutionaries’ we see in the news daily, who do not make lives better (but often much worse – and who disappear from the scene often with ignominy), how might these energies and commitments move us to a better place?</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;"><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;">What are the processes that might bring more useful views to the decision table (one likely to be controlled by a hierarchy of [hopefully democratic] representatives)?</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;"><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;">David</span></div></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium; "><br><blockquote type="cite">On Aug 19, 2010, at 11:28 AM, Michael Gurstein wrote:</blockquote></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Wolfgang,</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">-----Original Message-----</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">From: "Kleinwächter, Wolfgang"</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(5, 79, 176); "><span style="color: #000000">[<a href="mailto:wolfgang.kleinwaechter@medienkomm.uni-halle.de"><span style="text-decoration: underline">mailto:wolfgang.kleinwaechter@medienkomm.uni-halle.de</span></a>] </span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 2:01 AM</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(5, 79, 176); "><span style="color: #000000">To: Michael Gurstein; <a href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org"><span style="text-decoration: underline">governance@lists.cpsr.org</span></a></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Subject: AW: [governance] multistakeholderism</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Michael</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Thanks michael for you long explanation. if I understand you correctly your are in favour of a multistakeholder dialogue below the governmental level . In your concept the balancing of the various interests on the ground lead to a "government" at the top of a hierarchie. And it is the duty of a "good government" to take all stakeholders legitime interests into consideration when they develop policies and take decisions, domestically as well as in internaitonal bodies. If people do not like the government they elect another government. This is okay and this we practice in good democracies, in particular in Denmark, since decades.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">YES</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">What works in a "hierarchy" probably does not work in a "network". And again the chain of representation gets longer and longer in a complicated world where the chances that the input from the ground ends with the correct output at the negotiaton table is questionable.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">I AGREE WITH THE FINAL PART OF WHAT YOU SAY ABOVE... THE ISSUE OF A SHIFT FROM A "HIERARCHY" TO A "NETWORK" IS NOT VERY CLEAR TO ME (SCOPE, APPLICATION, EVIDENCE) NOR IS WHAT CONCLUSIONS YOU WOULD DRAW FROM THIS "SHIFT" AND WHAT BASIS YOU HAVE FOR DRAWING THESE CONCLUSIONS.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Again, a more practical example with regard t the forthcoming negotiations in the 2nd Committee of the UNGA: Do you share the view that it would be good if the Internet Community lets say from Chile would have a chance to channel its views not only to the career diplomat, sitting on behalf of the Chilean Foreign Office in the 2nd Committee but would have also a more direct channel via Chilenean or Latin American CS structures (or an ALS/LACRALO) which could be probably much more specific in explaining the details).</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">THIS REQUIRES MORE EXPLANATION--WHAT ARE THE ISSUES BEING ADDRESSED (TECHNICAL, NORMATIVE, DISTRIBUTIVE AND SO ON)? WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY "MORE DIRECT CHANNEL" HERE, AND WHAT IS BEING CHANNELED TO WHOM AND BY WHOM FOR WHAT PURPOSE, AT WHOSE INITIATIVE, IN WHAT DECISION MAKING CONTEXT AND SO ON. CERTAINLY CONTRIBUTING ADDITIONAL KNOWLEDGE, INSIGHT, INDICATIONS OF POPULAR SUPPORT/DISAGREEMENT AND SO ON WOULD BE VALUABLE TO THE OVERALL DISCUSSION AND DECISION MAKING PROCESS (BUT REMEMBERING THAT THESE CHANNELS ARE AS OPEN TO NON-CS FORCES AND INFLUENCES AS TO CS ONES AND WHERE THE ISSUE AT HAND MATTERS (FOR EXAMPLE FINANCIALLY), THOSE NON-CS FORCES ARE LIKELY TO BE BETTER ABLE TO MAKE THESE CONTRIBUTIONS THAN IS CS.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">World gets more complex. General solutions will not work if they do not offer space for very differentiated "issue tailored solutions". To get this right, you need more expertise, knowledge and representation on the table.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">YES, THE WORLD IS GETTING MORE COMPLEX... WHETHER WE WANT "DIFFERENTIATED SOLUTIONS" IS ANOTHER MATTER--THE OBVIOUS ONE FOR ME IS SAY NET NEUTRALITY. DO WE REALLY WANT ONE SOLUTION FOR THOSE ABLE TO PAY AND ANOTHER FOR THOSE NOT ABLE TO PAY.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">THE PRIMARY DIFFERENTIATOR IN MOST SOCIETIES IS WEALTH AND DO WE REALLY WANT TO DEVELOP GOVERNANCE SYSTEMS BASED ON THE PRINCIPLE OF ALLOWING ONE SOLUTION FOR THE RICH AND ANOTHER FOR THE POOR? MAYBE TECHNOLOGY ALLOWS US TO DO THAT IN NEW WAYS AND IN NEW AREAS BUT IT SEEMS TO ME THAT TRADITIONAL DEMOCRACY AND ITS BEAUTIFUL TWIN THE SOCIAL CONTRACT IS WORTH PRESERVING EVEN IF NEW WAYS OF UNDERMINING IT ARE BEING DEVELOPED AS WE SPEAK.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Certainly this will lead to a redistribution of power and this provokes the power struggle we see today. Who loves to share power? But power is shifting with the complexity of issues. When parliaments where invented in the middle ages, the kings were not amused that somebody wnated to have a say in decision making. From a kings perspective the interference of a parliament in his decisions was seen as unneeded because he had his advisers and owned all the wisdom.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">YES, THERE IS THE NUB. DO WE AS CS PROMOTE A SHIFT IN POWER AWAY FROM "THE PEOPLE" TO CORPORATIONS, TECHNOCRATS (EXPERTS), THE WEALTHY, I.E. THOSE WITH THE RESOURCES AND SKILLS CAPABLE OF EXERTING INFLUENCING (GAMING THE SYSTEM) IN OUR INTERNET ENABLED WORLD.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">I like Jefseys concept of polycracy. As we know from Mr. Hegel and Mr.Marx, simple things are becoming more complex if issues move to a higher level. And the move from the industrial society (with its representative democracy) to the information society (with a still undefined governance model) is such a move to a higher more complex level.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT A "polycracy" WOULD LOOK LIKE AND FROM WHAT I GATHER NEITHER DOES ANYONE ELSE, WITH ANY CLARITY; SO BEFORE WE MAKE OUR COLLECTIVE LEAP OF FAITH INTO THIS MISTY NEW WORLD I THINK IT MIGHT BE RATHER MORE USEFUL TO GIVE OUR ATTENTION TO FIGURING OUT HOW THE TECHNO-MAGICAL PROPERTIES AND AFFORDANCES OF THE DIGITAL WORLD--COMMUNICATIONS EVERYWHERE, UBIGUITOUS INFORMATION ACCESS AND CONTROL, ALMOST INFINITE UNIVERSAL MEMORY AND SO ON CAN HELP US TO DEEPEN A DEMOCRATIC SYSTEM THAT WHATEVER ITS FLAWS HAS DONE RIGHT BY MORE PEOPLE THAN ANY OTHER AND IS STILL THE UNQUESTIONED ASPIRATION OF THE VAST NUMBERS OF THOSE WITHOUT ACCESS TO ITS OPPORTUNTIIES AS WELL AS THOSE EVERYWHERE WITHOUT OTHER SOURCES OF POWER OR OPPORTUNITY.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">BEST,</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">MIKE</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Best wishes</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">wolfgang</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">________________________________</div><div><br></div><div><div style="font-size: medium; "><blockquote type="cite">On Aug 19, 2010, at 12:44 PM, Paul Lehto wrote:</blockquote></div></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; ">...</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">The internet is a tool, usually for greater democracy such as in Iran, etc. But in any case, the tools do not drive the democracy, as seemed to be suggested in another post calling democracy "outdated" based on the new communication patterns fostered by the internet. If the needs or characteristics of a technology drive democracy, then it is technology that is in control of governance and not people.</div></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; ">...</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">________________________________</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(5, 79, 176); "><span style="color: #000000">Von: Michael Gurstein [<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com"><span style="text-decoration: underline">mailto:gurstein@gmail.com</span></a>]</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Gesendet: Mi 18.08.2010 20:23</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">An: Kleinwächter, Wolfgang; <a href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org"><span style="text-decoration: underline ; color: #054fb0">governance@lists.cpsr.org</span></a></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Betreff: RE: [governance] multistakeholderism</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Wolfgang,</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">(I think I asked you first... but anyway...;-)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">This is a bizarre theory of government you are suggesting. Government, at least democratic governments are not (at least in principle) "stakeholders"... They don't or at least shouldn't have an independent "stake" in the outcomes of governance, rather they are the crucible through which the democratic citizenry expresses their voice as to desireable outcomes in public policy/decision making. The citizens give individual elected governments the right to manage the public interest on their behalf using government public services as their agents through regular and democratically conducted elections. The citizens have the right to remove the mandate from those elected governments as they choose if they don't think that they are executing or managing the public interest appropriately as they understand this (civics 101).</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Elected governments have an ambition to stay in power and thus act so as to develop and implement public policies of interest to the various active and effective stakeholders (business, civil society etc.) in such a way that these "stakeholders" in turn will provide the necessary support (financial, human resource support in elections) to allow governments to run successful campaigns and remain in power. Thus they consult with, accept representations from, are influenced by these various "stakeholders" (self-interested parties) but this process does not include transferring decision making responsibiliity to any of those parties. (Under many circumstances this would in fact be illegal and seen as corrupt practice.)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">The above sometimes gets distorted (sometimes wildly distorted) because of the cost and complexity of running modern elections/governments but at least that's the theory and in reasonably well-ordered democracies things operate more or less on that principle.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">The fact that many are disillusioned with the practices of certain specific (democratic) governments doesn't to my mind negate the principles of democractic practice which seem to me to be provide the greatest good for the greatest number overall. It does however, suggest that in those countries where there is concern, those with an interest in making the operations better should develop ways of enhancing the democratic process.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Digital tools now provide a variety of new ways for achieving enhanced ("deepened"?) democracy as for example through facilitating rapid communication and widespread access to information. This in turn enhances the possibility of citizens (and thus electors) having for example greater access to information, means of ensuring accountability on the part of their elected representatives and transparency of the various processes of governmental operations and administration.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">I'm sure this sounds incredibly simple minded to most of you folks but it is probably worth repeating here simply as an antidote to what appear to be some serious misunderstandings of how (democratic) governments in principle (and to a very considerable degree in many many instances) in fact do/should are legally obliged to operate.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">As for ways forward, I'm with Parminder in seeing the necessary way forward as being the establishment of some frameworks for global governance (perhaps in specific identified areas) with clear rules of operation/legitimacy/participation and means for enforcement. Those rules may be (perhaps need to be) supranational but it can't I think for reasons that should be obvious, be left to decisions by those who (have the means and interest) to show up and participate. The problem with with leaving it to those who show up (and in the absence of rules) is that those with the resources and the specific "stake" i.e. return from the outcome will find whatever means necessary to realize their ends and ultimately dominate the process. And those with less of a focused "stake" (viz. the public) will inevitably lose out. (Microsoft's apparently successful suborning of various global/national standards setting processes to serve their specific product promotion interests is an obvious example.)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Again in response to your question, the rules going forward need to be based on a clear recognition that the over-arching value is support for the (global) public interest and ensuring that the development of those rules are based on the broadest possible and democratic inclusion into the definition of what the public interest is in specific areas.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Best to all,</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Mike</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">-----Original Message-----</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">From: "Kleinwächter, Wolfgang"</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(5, 79, 176); "><span style="color: #000000">[<a href="mailto:wolfgang.kleinwaechter@medienkomm.uni-halle.de"><span style="text-decoration: underline">mailto:wolfgang.kleinwaechter@medienkomm.uni-halle.de</span></a>]</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 10:06 AM</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(5, 79, 176); "><span style="color: #000000">To: <a href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org"><span style="text-decoration: underline">governance@lists.cpsr.org</span></a>; Michael Gurstein; <a href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org"><span style="text-decoration: underline">governance@lists.cpsr.org</span></a></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Subject: AW: [governance] multistakeholderism</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Dear Michael</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">you did not comment on my key point: Do you agree that a mixture between (traditional) representative democrarcy and a new participatiry democracy (including of more stakeholders in policy development and decision making) is deepening democracy or not?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">What are the options (if you go beyond abstract theories about "isms")</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">1. One-Stakeholder Approach: A government develops policy and makes decisions (a good government consult a bad does it not)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">2. Two-Stakeholder Approach: In reality this is the traditional deal we know when governments follow strong lobbying by industry.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">3. Multi-Stakeholder Approach: This brings all concerned and affected parties, including civil society, to the negotiation table.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">If you have multiple choice, what do you prefer?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Another questions is how to organize a process that the people sitting in the room do get a legitimacy from their constituencies, do understand the issue and are immune against corruption.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Another questions is also, what the rules will be for the interaction among the participating parties in a multistakholder model. Such collaborative principles have to be developed (and your are invited to participate in drafting such principles).</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">As Mawaki has said, it would make no sense to exclude one stakeholder who is concerned or affected. This would lead to process where you externalize conflicts which then would block sustainbale developments. It would be stupid if one stakeholder would try to play the role of another stakeholder (or try to substitute). It is the collaborative idea of equal participation where different perspectives are puzzled together to find balance solotions (which means balance of legitimate interests) which will be sustainbale and fair to all parties.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Wolfgang</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">________________________________</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(5, 79, 176); "><span style="color: #000000">Von: Michael Gurstein [<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com"><span style="text-decoration: underline">mailto:gurstein@gmail.com</span></a>]</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Gesendet: Di 17.08.2010 23:04</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">An: <a href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org"><span style="text-decoration: underline ; color: #054fb0">governance@lists.cpsr.org</span></a>; Kleinwächter, Wolfgang</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Betreff: RE: [governance] multistakeholderism</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Wolfgang,</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">This is not meant as a rhetorical question. I asked it in the context of WSIS years ago, I asked it of Avri and now I'm asking it of you...</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">I completely agree about the role of CS in advocating, advising, lobbying, providing expertise and so on and so on--and I agree that this was a very valuable, even crucial contribution to WSIS. What I don't understand is on what basis you think that a couple of dozen, highly educated, self-selected, self-funded, largely Northern European middle aged males could (and should) somehow participate on behalf of (?) global civil society i.e. 6.5 billion actual and potential Internet users in negotiating and decision making concerning global Internet governance (or anything else for that matter).</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">The fact that these folks were able to show up for a couple of weeks in Geneva and then again in Tunis doesn't it seems to me provide a substitute for accountability, transparency, representivity, and so on. At least with your German diplomat I can see some clear logic/train of accountability which, if for example, I'm a trade unionist, an unemployed computer programmer, a marginalized Turkish migrant, or whatever I can gain a voice however feeble individually or through my advocacy (or other) group lobbying parties, members, ministers who in turn instruct your German rep. It may not work but where would be the equivalent linkages for these folks or the several billion others in the scenario that you are positing in Steps 5 and 6.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Mike</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">-----Original Message-----</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">From: "Kleinwächter, Wolfgang"</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(5, 79, 176); "><span style="color: #000000">[<a href="mailto:wolfgang.kleinwaechter@medienkomm.uni-halle.de"><span style="text-decoration: underline">mailto:wolfgang.kleinwaechter@medienkomm.uni-halle.de</span></a>]</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 1:01 PM</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(5, 79, 176); "><span style="color: #000000">To: <a href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org"><span style="text-decoration: underline">governance@lists.cpsr.org</span></a>; David Allen; <a href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org"><span style="text-decoration: underline">governance@lists.cpsr.org</span></a></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Subject: AW: [governance] multistakeholderism</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Dear David</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">thanks for your inspiring contribution. "Deepening democracy" and "multistakeholderism" are in my eyes not a contradiction. It is the first and overall aim of the multistakeholder approach to deepen democracy.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Decisions in a representative democracy are made by our parliaments. In international relations governments represent our nations. In a one stakeholder model only the government has a voice. A good government will listen to the people, a bad government will ignore this. However even under the best circumstances the chain of representation gets very long and it is difficult tho channel the opinion of the majority of the Internet users in a given country into the statements of career diplomat who takes only advise from his "Capital". Just to take one example: The German diplomat who sits in the second Committee of the UN General Assembly, which has to negotiate the future of the IGF in October/November 2010 is the "legitime representative" of Germany and represents insofar also the Internet Users in Germany. He has to negotiate around 50 issues and even if he tries to do his best he can not be an expert in this field. If he is wise (and fortunately the German governmental representatives in ICANN and the IGF are very open minded and cooperate with the public) he will listen to the various voices and than make his own decision if he has no instructions from his HQ. In a multistakeholder approach, there are more voices on the table. They will and can NOT substitute the diplomat who has to play "his respective role", but the inclusion of more viewpoins can lead to more sustainable and workable results. This combination of representative and participatory democracy is the core of the multistakeholder approach.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Remember the early days of WSIS, wenn MS was not yet recognized and CS was removed from the room after the plenary meeting. We developed a multi-step strategy to include CS in policy and decision making within the WSIS process. Step 1: The right to sit in the room also in working groups as silent onlookers, Step 2: The right to make statements. Step 3: The right to participate in the discussion, Step 4. The right to draft language for recommendations, Step 5: The right to participate in the negotiations, Step 6: The right to participate in decison making and to vote.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">We reached Step 4 in WSIS, which was not bad if you compare it with the start. To have different voices on the table when policies are developed is important. But it is true. It can not be the end of the story just to sit and to say some words. Insofar, rights, duties and responsibilties of the various actors have to be defined and procedures for the interaction among the stakholders have to be developed.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">BTW, it would be good if the pharma industry and the private health insure companies, when they negotiate with governments, would include the "users", that is the patients, into the discussion. This would be multistakeholder in healthcare. :-)))</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Wolfgang</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">________________________________</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(5, 79, 176); "><span style="color: #000000">Von: David Allen [<a href="mailto:David_Allen_AB63@post.harvard.edu"><span style="text-decoration: underline">mailto:David_Allen_AB63@post.harvard.edu</span></a>]</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Gesendet: Di 17.08.2010 05:52</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(5, 79, 176); "><span style="color: #000000">An: <a href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org"><span style="text-decoration: underline">governance@lists.cpsr.org</span></a></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Betreff: Re:[governance] multistakeholderism</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; color: rgb(5, 79, 176); ">I really do not see big differences between ... It is a little bit playing with words</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">This comes perilously close to demeaning the original author. That author most likely did not see his carefully thought-out propositions to be 'playing with words'... Such is not convivial for the quality exchange we have seen on this list of late. Instead, if we take care to respect the view we do not share, then our contrary reasons and evidence may help to find even more enlightened synthesis.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">MS'ism - as practiced in Internet Governance - has been a means to try and insert more viewpoints into United Nations processes. Whether that will 'work' is still unclear. Power, as held by the states, is the starting point. Will they cede and share some power? That is the core question. Certainly, MS'ism is what has given the likes of CS some seat at the table. Indeed, that is to be treasured. Has it also created the possibility for co-opting CS, by picking and choosing which CS voices are chosen, from amid the cacophony? Has CS (or for that matter the other 'estate') been given 'equal time'?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">There is a backdrop against which this has occurred. On that much larger canvas, there are the seemingly ever-present pressures for expansion, finally now toward what some would characterize as a global polity. In a recent post, if I remember, the Internet has been dubbed a new form of [effectively global] government. Others have sought new forms of democratized governance, globally, seeing a failure of states per se and of the elected and representative forms of government so far in place.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">As far as I can see, the Internet is a form of communication. But people govern - communications tools, such as the Internet, can be turned to one or the other means, means often with very different end effects. (Much) more than that, there is a dearth of thoughtfully- worked out detail for what will replace representative forms of governance.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">This larger canvas can situate the present subject: MS'ism might indeed be a 'step along the way.' But what are further steps, realistically? and at some (at least intermediate) end points, what forms of governance, concretely? reliably worked out?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Heading that direction could be one goal of quality exchange, such as here.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">David</div></div></body></html>