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<font face="Verdana">Parminder,<br>
Tx for this synthesis. Can you suggest some ways to move forward as CS?
Given that the private sector will obviously look out for private
sector interests, how should we as CS work effectively to protect
the/our public interest?<br>
gp<br>
</font><br>
On 8/13/2010 9:03 AM, parminder wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:4C6549A9.4010409@itforchange.net" type="cite">
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Hi All<br>
<br>
The biggest thing that comes out of the Verizon-Google deal is not what
that may do to the future of the Internet. I still keep my hopes with
political governance to ensure public interest prevails rather than
depend on deals between companies which are, and expected to be, based
on private interests. (Though the danger is that this deal could be a
trail balloon by the US establishment, which even though it knows it is
against people's interest vis a vis that of the big corporates, may
still go with a deal that doesnt protect network neutrality because
overall geo-economic interests of developed countries lie with sticking
to backing these global corporates. This is the reason that network
neutrality is really even more a developing country issue, a big and
central part of what would be development agenda.)<br>
<br>
Coming back to the principal issue I wanted to raise. The principal
lesson for this deal is for all of us to reconsider the foggy business
of multistakeholderism as a new policy-making form, and clearly
understand and accept the long established distinctions between pulbic
interest and private interest.<br>
<br>
Companies represent private interests. That is what they are supposed
to do, and they will always end up doing so. In fact there is nothing
wrong for them to do it, as long as they are within legal boundaries.
That is the nature of the private sector, definitionally. <br>
<br>
On the other hand, civil society and governments are public interest
players. Both sectors at diferent times can have different problems
about their legitimacy etc, and this has to be engaged with. However
the essential difference between private interest players (businesses)
and public interest players (civil society and governments) has always
been clear, and we would be doing great disservice to the global
society if in the name of multistakeholderism we try to distinguish
this difference. <br>
<br>
As Carlton notes in his email<br>
<br>
<blockquote><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Sober
commentators
have
already weighed in on the implications of what they see as Google
switching sides in the NN debate. Most have come to recognize the
critical issue; when loads of money is in play, priorities tend to
follow the
money. It is quixotic to pretend otherwise.</span></blockquote>
<br>
It is time we also stopped pretending otherwise. We should be working
for deepening democracy - a concept that challenges government's
singular authority by complementing it with other forms of interest
representation, rather than multistakeholderism, a concept which seems
built to give political respectability to private interests. <br>
<br>
Parminder<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Thursday 12 August 2010 11:51 PM, SAMUELS,Carlton A wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:39D05A5FD7C1334DA749CCFCE8538F87136B62B6B2@xchg1.uwimona.edu.jm"
type="cite">
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Parminder:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I
share
the sentiments in your final paragraph even as you badly
misread my misgivings. To report what is – and recognize the nature
of things – can hardly be construed as endorsement. Sober
commentators
have already weighed in on the implications of what they see as Google
switching sides in the NN debate. Most have come to recognize the
critical issue; when loads of money is in play, priorities tend to
follow the
money. It is quixotic to pretend otherwise.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I
cut
my professional teeth in the telecommunications business,
pre Final Modified Judgment; Judge Green’s Order that broke up Ma
Bell. And it is from certain knowledge that I can declare that
telecommunications
companies have always had preferred customers and show preference in
very
business-like practical ways for those customers. Routine business
transactions
that hardly ever see the light of a [public] day. Coupled to this, they
occupy
a critical portion of the Internet ecosystem. Gut check: they are
principally sellers of connectivity and bandwidth. And like every other
seller,
volume transactions matter. To resist acknowledging that there is a
marketplace that has certain behaviours is untenable. At least, for
me.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">We
–
civil society – are left with very few dogs in
the hunt. One of them is to make personal statements that undergird
our
opposition. Grouch Marx was alleged to have said “I don’t
want to belong to any club that will have me as a member”. The
sentiment expressed has a larger embrace and this is where you’ll find
me. Ginger’s response to Apple and Apple products is part of that
piece;
I own no Apple products and I will never buy an Iphone. Another is
stoking
public disgust. Because even the most rapacious corporation is mindful
of
its public image. Sometimes, even more so than politicians! [It was
fascinating to watch the public contortions of BP in recent past!] <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">My
position
is that this ‘knowing’ is what fuels the
big picture response, whether it involves politicians driven to act for
fear of
losing votes or acting in collaboration with other interests out of
genuine belief.
This is the basis for my argument that transparency trumps. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Carlton
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; color: windowtext;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; color: windowtext;">
parminder
[<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">mailto:parminder@itforchange.net</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 11, 2010 8:49 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] Net neutrality on mobiles<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Carlton<br>
<br>
On Wednesday 11 August 2010 04:36 AM, SAMUELS,Carlton A wrote: <o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>Ginger hit the nail squarely on its head; the crux of the NN issue for civil society is transparency. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
No, transparency is hardly enough. a quote from a quote in Ginger's
subsequent
email "<b>That way, as Americans lose access to the free and open
Internet, they can visibly watch it go away."</b><br>
<br>
How does it matter if I know something is happening if I have no way of
influencing it?<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre> The competitive free market will always devise methods, processes and activities intended to create advantage for one or other player. There will always be players willing to make investments to pump their wares; something for free that others are charging for is a tried and true method, ala "free" text messaging for x period.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Lowering the barrier to entry or participation is another. MS Windows took pole position in the OS space because there were apps driving its market penetration; a readily available SDK fueled the spread. Case in point: despite the hype and sleekness of the Iphone, it wouldn't have been such a hit without those apps. And the smart decision to freely distribute its SDK. Putting some 'skin in the game' by making a popular hi-traffic app available for free is not a stretch in marketing imagination.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<p class="MsoNormal">Even in terms of commercial regulation, why
does
then EU
fine Microsoft Billions of dollars for bundling IE with its OS? And
this when
market distortions vis a vis stand alone applications like OS and
browsers is
not one tenth of what vertical integration and bundling would do in the
network
or Internet space.<br>
<br>
However, if one doesnt believe in need to watch over possible excesses
of
market power, one just doesnt. No amount of argument can do anything
about it.
One can chose to be more bothered about the daily new glamorous things
one gets
on one's i-phone and the Internet, or be more bothered about the
structural
implications of vertical integrations in the network space to the hopes
set by
the Internet for a more egalitarian world.<br>
<br>
You seem to be happy that Apple bundles so much goodies with its
i-phone, McTim
and Ginger are unhappy about the exclusive walls that the apps ecology
of
i-phone and other Apple products are creating, and therefroe refuse to
use
Apple products. Neither stances, in my view, is enough from a civil
society
advocacy group perspective which needs to probe the deeper policy
issues and
come up with responses that serve the progressive cause and advoacte
them
strongly on behalf of those who cannot be present in these forums but
whose
lives are nonetheless greatly affected by these developments. <br>
<br>
In any case, at least in my view, Internet is not just a market place,
it is a
social space for our non-commerical social interactions, it is a public
media
and a public sphere, it is a space for exercising citizenship. Perhaps
without
discussions on these deeper issues and essential nature of the Internet
and
what we take it to be, discussions on a 'simple act' of a free Internet
based
service wont go anywhere. <br>
<br>
Parminder <br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Innovation tumbles over innovation, that's the law.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Carlton<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: Ginger Paque [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gpaque@gmail.com">mailto:gpaque@gmail.com</a>]<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2010 7:37 AM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a>; Ian Peter<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Subject: Re: [governance] Net neutrality on mobiles<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Ian and Parminder,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>This is an interesting point for me, but I wonder where the line is<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>between advertising and other issues, like 'free benefits' which David<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>mentions. For instance, when text messaging was first available in<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Venezuela, it was free. It was free for long enough to get everyone<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>hooked on it. Then they started charging for it.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>It is difficult for me to see this as a NN issue since it sounds more<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>like a 'free trial', or a 'package deal' that attracts customers. My<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>serious issues with NN are lack of transparency, not marketing.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Where do you see this 'line'?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>I think this is a good time to discuss NN so that we can be more<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>productive in Vilnius.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Best, Ginger<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>On 8/7/2010 11:23 PM, Ian Peter wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;">
<pre>Hi Parminder,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Unfortunately Australia has already jumped ship on this too. It is common<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>practice for ISPs here (who have volume charging regimes) to create free<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>zones of their partner sites which do not attract volume charges and/or<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>traffic shaping when people exceed download limits. Nobody here seems to<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>want to pick this up as an issue. To me, this is a distortion of a free<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>market and an open Internet at the same time and should be attracting a lot<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>more attention.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>The mobile world, as you mention, brings with it other distortions and<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>potential distortions (eg built in apps and interfaces)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>I agree - we should discuss.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Ian Peter<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;">
<pre>From: parminder<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net"><parminder@itforchange.net></a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Reply-To:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org"><governance@lists.cpsr.org></a>, parminder<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net"><parminder@itforchange.net></a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2010 08:51:02 +0530<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org"><governance@lists.cpsr.org></a>,<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ciresearchers@vancouvercommunity.net"><ciresearchers@vancouvercommunity.net></a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Subject: [governance] Net neutrality on mobiles<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Hi All<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>The biggest mobile operator in India, Airtel, is providing Facebook free<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>of data download charges in India (apparently, only for 2 months). I<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>understand this is happening in other countries too; i read about<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>something similar in Russia.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>I consider this as an outright violation of net neutrality (NN).<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Since there are existing codes of conduct on NN in some countries like<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Norway and Brazil, I will like to know from those who know and<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>understand these country specific arrangements well if such a thing as<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>above will be considered a NN violation under these codes.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>If indeed developing countries are to have any chance of being a part of<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>shaping and governing the future of the Internet, we should start<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>testing such cases as above with the telecom regulatory authourities,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>and if needed with courts and anti-trust bodies.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Parminder<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>PS: See latest developments on NN debate in the US at<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/08/google-verizon-close-to-their">http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/08/google-verizon-close-to-their</a>-<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>own-net-neutrality-deal.ars<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>It appears that there is some move to treat wireless or mobile based<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Internet on a different level vis a vis NN than wired Internet.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>As the largest market players - here, Verizon and Google - seek to<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>arrive at a mutually convenient arrangement, and the only other party<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>to it is the US gov, itself representing very partisan, and largely<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>dominant, interests, as far as the global public Internet is concerned,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>the real shape of global IG is quite evident. Where does the IGF, and<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>indeed the IGC come into this may be a question that we need to ponder<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>upon.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
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