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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Parminder:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I share the sentiments in your final paragraph even as you badly
misread my misgivings. To report what is – and recognize the nature
of things – can hardly be construed as endorsement. Sober commentators
have already weighed in on the implications of what they see as Google
switching sides in the NN debate. Most have come to recognize the
critical issue; when loads of money is in play, priorities tend to follow the
money. It is quixotic to pretend otherwise.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I cut my professional teeth in the telecommunications business,
pre Final Modified Judgment; Judge Green’s Order that broke up Ma
Bell. And it is from certain knowledge that I can declare that telecommunications
companies have always had preferred customers and show preference in very
business-like practical ways for those customers. Routine business transactions
that hardly ever see the light of a [public] day. Coupled to this, they occupy
a critical portion of the Internet ecosystem. Gut check: they are
principally sellers of connectivity and bandwidth. And like every other seller,
volume transactions matter. To resist acknowledging that there is a
marketplace that has certain behaviours is untenable. At least, for
me.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>We – civil society – are left with very few dogs in
the hunt. One of them is to make personal statements that undergird our
opposition. Grouch Marx was alleged to have said “I don’t
want to belong to any club that will have me as a member”. The
sentiment expressed has a larger embrace and this is where you’ll find
me. Ginger’s response to Apple and Apple products is part of that piece;
I own no Apple products and I will never buy an Iphone. Another is stoking
public disgust. Because even the most rapacious corporation is mindful of
its public image. Sometimes, even more so than politicians! [It was
fascinating to watch the public contortions of BP in recent past!] <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>My position is that this ‘knowing’ is what fuels the
big picture response, whether it involves politicians driven to act for fear of
losing votes or acting in collaboration with other interests out of genuine belief.
This is the basis for my argument that transparency trumps. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Carlton <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'> parminder
[mailto:parminder@itforchange.net] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 11, 2010 8:49 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> governance@lists.cpsr.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] Net neutrality on mobiles<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>Carlton<br>
<br>
On Wednesday 11 August 2010 04:36 AM, SAMUELS,Carlton A wrote: <o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>Ginger hit the nail squarely on its head; the crux of the NN issue for civil society is transparency. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<p class=MsoNormal><br>
No, transparency is hardly enough. a quote from a quote in Ginger's subsequent
email "<b>That way, as Americans lose access to the free and open
Internet, they can visibly watch it go away."</b><br>
<br>
How does it matter if I know something is happening if I have no way of
influencing it?<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre> The competitive free market will always devise methods, processes and activities intended to create advantage for one or other player. There will always be players willing to make investments to pump their wares; something for free that others are charging for is a tried and true method, ala "free" text messaging for x period.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Lowering the barrier to entry or participation is another. MS Windows took pole position in the OS space because there were apps driving its market penetration; a readily available SDK fueled the spread. Case in point: despite the hype and sleekness of the Iphone, it wouldn't have been such a hit without those apps. And the smart decision to freely distribute its SDK. Putting some 'skin in the game' by making a popular hi-traffic app available for free is not a stretch in marketing imagination.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<p class=MsoNormal>Even in terms of commercial regulation, why does then EU
fine Microsoft Billions of dollars for bundling IE with its OS? And this when
market distortions vis a vis stand alone applications like OS and browsers is
not one tenth of what vertical integration and bundling would do in the network
or Internet space.<br>
<br>
However, if one doesnt believe in need to watch over possible excesses of
market power, one just doesnt. No amount of argument can do anything about it.
One can chose to be more bothered about the daily new glamorous things one gets
on one's i-phone and the Internet, or be more bothered about the structural
implications of vertical integrations in the network space to the hopes set by
the Internet for a more egalitarian world.<br>
<br>
You seem to be happy that Apple bundles so much goodies with its i-phone, McTim
and Ginger are unhappy about the exclusive walls that the apps ecology of
i-phone and other Apple products are creating, and therefroe refuse to use
Apple products. Neither stances, in my view, is enough from a civil society
advocacy group perspective which needs to probe the deeper policy issues and
come up with responses that serve the progressive cause and advoacte them
strongly on behalf of those who cannot be present in these forums but whose
lives are nonetheless greatly affected by these developments. <br>
<br>
In any case, at least in my view, Internet is not just a market place, it is a
social space for our non-commerical social interactions, it is a public media
and a public sphere, it is a space for exercising citizenship. Perhaps without
discussions on these deeper issues and essential nature of the Internet and
what we take it to be, discussions on a 'simple act' of a free Internet based
service wont go anywhere. <br>
<br>
Parminder <br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Innovation tumbles over innovation, that's the law.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Carlton<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>From: Ginger Paque [<a
href="mailto:gpaque@gmail.com">mailto:gpaque@gmail.com</a>]<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2010 7:37 AM<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>To: <a
href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a>; Ian Peter<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Subject: Re: [governance] Net neutrality on mobiles<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Ian and Parminder,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>This is an interesting point for me, but I wonder where the line is<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>between advertising and other issues, like 'free benefits' which David<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>mentions. For instance, when text messaging was first available in<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Venezuela, it was free. It was free for long enough to get everyone<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>hooked on it. Then they started charging for it.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>It is difficult for me to see this as a NN issue since it sounds more<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>like a 'free trial', or a 'package deal' that attracts customers. My<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>serious issues with NN are lack of transparency, not marketing.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Where do you see this 'line'?<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>I think this is a good time to discuss NN so that we can be more<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>productive in Vilnius.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Best, Ginger<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>On 8/7/2010 11:23 PM, Ian Peter wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>Hi Parminder,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Unfortunately Australia has already jumped ship on this too. It is common<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>practice for ISPs here (who have volume charging regimes) to create free<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>zones of their partner sites which do not attract volume charges and/or<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>traffic shaping when people exceed download limits. Nobody here seems to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>want to pick this up as an issue. To me, this is a distortion of a free<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>market and an open Internet at the same time and should be attracting a lot<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>more attention.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>The mobile world, as you mention, brings with it other distortions and<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>potential distortions (eg built in apps and interfaces)<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>I agree - we should discuss.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Ian Peter<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>From: parminder<a
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net"><parminder@itforchange.net></a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Reply-To:<a
href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org"><governance@lists.cpsr.org></a>, parminder<a
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net"><parminder@itforchange.net></a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2010 08:51:02 +0530<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>To:<a
href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org"><governance@lists.cpsr.org></a>,<a
href="mailto:ciresearchers@vancouvercommunity.net"><ciresearchers@vancouvercommunity.net></a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Subject: [governance] Net neutrality on mobiles<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Hi All<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>The biggest mobile operator in India, Airtel, is providing Facebook free<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>of data download charges in India (apparently, only for 2 months). I<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>understand this is happening in other countries too; i read about<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>something similar in Russia.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>I consider this as an outright violation of net neutrality (NN).<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Since there are existing codes of conduct on NN in some countries like<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Norway and Brazil, I will like to know from those who know and<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>understand these country specific arrangements well if such a thing as<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>above will be considered a NN violation under these codes.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>If indeed developing countries are to have any chance of being a part of<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>shaping and governing the future of the Internet, we should start<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>testing such cases as above with the telecom regulatory authourities,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>and if needed with courts and anti-trust bodies.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Parminder<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>PS: See latest developments on NN debate in the US at<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><a
href="http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/08/google-verizon-close-to-their">http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/08/google-verizon-close-to-their</a>-<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>own-net-neutrality-deal.ars<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>It appears that there is some move to treat wireless or mobile based<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Internet on a different level vis a vis NN than wired Internet.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>As the largest market players - here, Verizon and Google - seek to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>arrive at a mutually convenient arrangement, and the only other party<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>to it is the US gov, itself representing very partisan, and largely<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>dominant, interests, as far as the global public Internet is concerned,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>the real shape of global IG is quite evident. Where does the IGF, and<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>indeed the IGC come into this may be a question that we need to ponder<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>upon.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>____________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> <a
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