Milton, Avri, can you agree with triggering the Godwin escape button ?<br><br>You have both valid points but are talking past one another on different planes : good and bad things in history obviously come from the fortunate or unfortunate combination between individual leaders and groups. Combinations vary but it's not either/or. May I ask you both to continue this specific exchange at the next opportunity you have for a drink ? You both can contribute much more on the rest of the thread.<br>
<br>More generally on that topic, this is how I see history : <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name="ProgId" content="Word.Document"><meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 10"><meta name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 10"><link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CBertrand%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><style>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 6pt; text-align: justify; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2"><span lang="EN-GB">Cynics will tell you that history is all about kings and wars. Do not
believe them. History is about visions and the efforts of humans to manage
their growing and increasingly complex societies. </span></font></p>
<font size="2"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;" lang="EN-GB"><br>Through an unrelenting
competition of ideas in the scientific and political spheres, they try to
explain how the world works and how human societies can/should organize.<br><br>In a nutshell : </span><b><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span lang="EN-GB">“World history is the constant effort </span></span><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">of mankind towards better</span></b><b> <span style="font-family: "Maiandra GD";" lang="EN-GB"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">collective organization”</span></span></b></font></div>
</div><br>I strongly believe this is what our present task is - and what this discussion is all about. <br><br>I can of course be accused of being a relentless optimist. But the philosopher Alain famously said : Pessimism is about Mood; Optimism is about Will. (le Pessimisme est d'humeur, l'optimisme est de volonté". And Jean Monnet, who initiated the European Union process said : "I'm not optimistic, I'm determined". (Je ne suis pas optimiste, je suis déterminé). <br>
<br>I hope this helps.<br><br>Best<br><br>Bertrand<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 11:15 PM, Ian Peter <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ian.peter@ianpeter.com">ian.peter@ianpeter.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>
<font face="Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><br>
<br>
Well spotted McTim! For the uninitiated from Wikipedia- <br>
<br>
</span><font size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><b>Godwin's Law</b> (also known as <b>Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies</b> or <b>Godwin's Law of Nazi Analogies</b>) is a humorous observation made by Mike Godwin in 1990 which has become an Internet adage. It states: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches”<br>
<br>
Godwin's Law is often cited in online discussions as a deterrent against the use of arguments in the widespread <i>reductio ad Hitlerum </i> form. The rule does not make any statement about whether any particular reference or comparison to Adolf Hitler or the Nazis might be appropriate, but only asserts that the likelihood of such a reference or comparison arising increases as the discussion progresses. It is precisely because such a comparison or reference may sometimes be appropriate, Godwin has argued that overuse of Nazi and Hitler comparisons should be avoided, because it robs the valid comparisons of their impact.<br>
</span></font><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><br>
Also </span><font size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished.<br>
</span></font><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><br>
<hr width="95%" align="CENTER" size="3"><b>From: </b>McTim <<a href="http://dogwallah@gmail.com" target="_blank">dogwallah@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Reply-To: </b><<a href="http://governance@lists.cpsr.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a>>, McTim <<a href="http://dogwallah@gmail.com" target="_blank">dogwallah@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Sat, 27 Feb 2010 00:56:45 +0300<br>
<b>To: </b><<a href="http://governance@lists.cpsr.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a>>, Milton L Mueller <<a href="http://mueller@syr.edu" target="_blank">mueller@syr.edu</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b>Avri Doria <<a href="http://avri@psg.com" target="_blank">avri@psg.com</a>><div class="im"><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [governance] Parminder's exchange with Bertrand<br>
<br>
<br>
<br></div><div><div></div><div class="h5">
On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 11:36 PM, Milton L Mueller <<a href="http://mueller@syr.edu" target="_blank">mueller@syr.edu</a>> wrote:<br>
</div></div></span></font><div><div></div><div class="h5"><blockquote><font face="Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><br>
I think your view is incredibly unrealistic, even bizarre. Authoritarian monsters like Hitler<br>
</span></font></blockquote></div></div><font face="Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><div><div></div><div class="h5"><br>
Godwin.<br>
<br>
Let's move on.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
McTim<br>
"A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A route indicates how we get there." Jon Postel<br>
<br>
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