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Remain Un</title></head><body>
<div>Fouad,</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>It's worth reading McTim's responses carefully. In
particular, there is room in RIR space for anyone who wants to make
responsible comments to participate. The RIRs are not closed
organizations; they serve the ISPs of the region by administering
address allocations for the benefit of their members, ISPs, and
ultimately the users. They do have administrative costs that
they must recover. However, those costs, as they are distributed
down to the tail ISPs, are very minimal compared with almost all other
costs involved in being a part of the network (sometimes even
including tea and coffee :-) ).</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>One of the most important functions that lists like this can
perform, as well as meetings such as IGF, is to ensure that
participants understand how the current system works. An
accurate understanding of the current system is really important for
discussion to lead to useful progress.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>George</div>
<div><br></div>
<div
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<span
></span>~~~~~~~</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>At 3:51 PM +0300 1/22/10, McTim wrote:</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>Fouad,<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 3:20 PM, Fouad
Bajwa <<a
href="mailto:fouadbajwa@gmail.com">fouadbajwa@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote>Hi,<br>
That is actually a mis-perception. It costs to join APNIC and
receive<br>
number resources.<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><br>
I labor under no misconception regarding how the RIRs operate.<br>
<br>
I am am active member of several RIR mailing lists. Today for
example, I have received a dozen or more mail from ARIN, RIPE and
AfrINIC lists.<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote><a
href=
"http://www.apnic.net/services/become-a-member/how-much-does-it-cost"
>http://www.apnic.net/services/become-a-member/how-much-does-it-cost</a
><br>
<br>
If you visit the APNIC frontpage at <a
href="http://www.apnic.net">http://www.apnic.net</a>, you will see<br>
under the heading Internet Resources: How Much Does it Cost? and
you<br>
will see the structure they have. All ISPs and service providers
in<br>
the region have to buy their membership and then this trickles down
to<br>
the end-users as well.<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><br>
Local Internet Registries should operate on a cost recovery basis,
some do and some inevitably make IP addresses a profit center.<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote>Secondly there is no system for Civil Society<br>
and Non-Commercial User engagement<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><br>
This is where the misconception is entirely yours. Anyone can
join the policy discussion lists and have an impact on Internet
numbering resource policy. Currently, I do not represent any ISP
or LIR, yet participate in developing policies in multiple regions.
Really, the system is open to anyone, technically minded or
otherwise. Milton's experience in the ARIN region also prove
this, as he has had a not insignificant impact on ARIN policy making
since he joined the list.<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote>, more or less, a structure coming<br>
down from the parent number resource system.<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><br>
Nope, completely bottom up. Where do you get these false notions
from?<br>
<br>
<blockquote><br>
Actually its sold to APNIC Members that charge quite a fees that
in<br>
most cases is far more than the amount of income for many in our
part<br>
of the world. Have a look at the Membership Charges of APNIC.<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><br>
IP addresses are NOT sold. You should read more completely:<br>
<br>
<a
href=
"http://www.apnic.net/services/become-a-member/how-much-does-it-cost"
>http://www.apnic.net/services/become-a-member/how-much-does-it-cost</a
><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><b>"APNIC does not sell Internet
resources such as IP addresses.</b><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>Instead, resources holders are granted
the right to use these public resources. However, APNIC charges
administration fees to assist in the management of this resource and
the provision of services it provides the community."<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>I have tracked their fees for many years,
and find their system to be very fair. <br>
<br>
What you must understand is that for an ISP that wants IP blocks, one
does not have to join a RIR to get them, they can simply get an
assignment or sub-allocation from their upstream provider. For
larger ISPs, the cost of joining and getting an allocation is a tiny
fraction of their monthly revenue. It's part of the cost of
doing business, like serving tea to the staff (I know because
the last ISP I worked for actually had a larger tea/sugar/milk budget
than for the AfriNIC fees).</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite> <br>
<blockquote><br>
The perception you shared is what is commonly shared amongst the<br>
Internet community from the developed world.<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><br>
This perception is also widely shared in the developing world.<br>
<br>
<blockquote>Its not an apple pie for<br>
us, really, we have some really tough problems here.<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><br>
Believe me I know what those problems are and work on them daily here
in Africa. The RIRs fees are NOT one of the problems.<br>
<blockquote><br>
Its not how critically we think but what resources we have access
to<br>
without Moolah (money) in between. The system is very vague indeed
for<br>
the people that see it from outside but from the inside, you pay,
you<br>
get.<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><br>
<br>
Do you honestly think that adding another layer of bureaucracy would
make the system cheaper?<br>
<br>
<blockquote><br>
I rest my case.<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><br>
I find no merit in your "case".<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><br>
--<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
McTim<br>
"A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is.
A route indicates how we get there." Jon
Postel</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><br>
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