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Jeanette<br>
<br>
My first task will be to emphatically restate my position on openness
and participative-ness, because confusion about it will, I think,
continue to bedevil my attempts to make an entirely different point. <br>
<br>
If I am to mention one thing I do professionally today, I would say it
is to work for more open and participative governance systems. We work
from grassroots levels to policy levels towards this objective, often
in very radical manners.<br>
<br>
We have always sought that MAG works in working groups co-opting
interested people and groups to both develop the main sessions, and
also background material/ papers etc for main themes. We have also
sought that most, if not all, of MAG discussion takes place on an open
list, which proposal incidentally did not find support from many of
those who now support 'do-we-even-need-a-MAG' experiment, which is a
bit strange. So while we seek more openness, we do look with
considerable suspicion at 'openness' which may, or even be designed in
order to, make the substantial evaporate. Obviously, we cannot afford
to lose sight of the intrinsic purpose of a system/ organization in
promoting an instrumental purpose. Anarchy, for instance, cannot be the
outcome of increasing participation in governance systems.<br>
<br>
I hope this convinces you that I am not arguing against more open and
participative MAG meetings. We should discuss more about how to make
the MAG system more open and participative. Lets start a thread on it.
Meanwhile allow me to discuss an entirely different issue - the radical
'do-we-even-need-a-MAG' experiment. While I myself saw this proposal as
possibly clearing the way for the new structural possibility of no MAG
or a greatly weakened MAG, you yourself confirmed that, in your words<br>
<br>
<blockquote>"This year's meetings following the February meeting could
be regarded as an experiment to find out if a MAG is needed at all." <br>
</blockquote>
<br>
You would agree that this is a rather drastic experiment. Who chose to
try this experiment (and why) rather than, and I repeat, other
experiments more in keeping with IGC's earlier position to seek
outcomes from MAG/ IGF system like background material/ papers on key
themes for the IGF, greater specificity of key policy issues to be
taken up, inter-sessional thematic work etc. (if you want I can flesh
out how such experiments can be tried.) To propose this experiment over
others, I beg to state, is an ideological position on one end of a
large spectrum of views on what IGF should do. And, putting into effect
this experiment would serve to preempt movement towards these greater
possibilities, which in the view of many people are needed to be
explored in order to meet the full mandate of the IGF. <br>
<br>
>If I understand you correctly, Parminder, you imply that only a
formally constituted group with a exlusive >membership could take
over broader responsibilities? If so, I havn't thought about this
enough to agree or >disagree with you on this.
<br>
<br>
Yes, I think only a formally constituted group, but with strong
processes of openness and participation, can take up these broader
responsibilities. As for doing our thinking on this, I must say that we
need to do it now, and before we suggest structural experiments of the
kind do-we-need-a-MAG. Obviously, thinking about what we expect a
system to achieve, and how, should come before we meddle with its
structure. This is the reason that I proposed that a particular kind of
structural meddling/ change/ experiment presupposes a certain view of
IGF's purpose and possibilities, whether we hold it consciously or not.
And this view of IGF's purpose in my opinion is very one-sided. <br>
<br>
Do you really think that an open house (if the do-we-need-MAG
experiment succeeds, on whatever basis success is construed, that is
all we will be left with) can really do the following tasks - <br>
<br>
<ul>
<li>Do intensive discussion/ negotiation to come up with specific
policy questions for IGF's consideration (As IRP DC statement seeks and
IGC has also sought in the past)</li>
<li>Do elaborate linking and structuring of main sessions and
workshops to get the best synergies out (again roughly from IRP DC
statement, but also from IGC's earlier statements)</li>
<li>Discuss/ negotiate specific sub themes and discussion areas, for
themes like CIR and openness which are politically volatile in order to
have meaningful progress in these vital areas</li>
<li>Select panelists<br>
</li>
<li>Interact with other policy institutions (as per WSIS mandate)<br>
</li>
<li>Come up with background material on some themes, syntheisize some
kind of outcomes of some IGF processes etc - things which IGC have
called for earlier , and also needed to fulfill WSIS mandate of giving
advice/ recommendations</li>
<li>There are many other things to possibly do for a group with clear
membership and not an 'open house', like suggested by Charity vis a
vis remote participation, but I will stop here.</li>
</ul>
<br>
Do we realize that if a broadly representative mutlistakeholder group
like the MAG did not do all this, who will really end up doing it and
taking the decisions. Would that eventuality enhance openness and
participation, or greatly curtail it? Can we suggest -do-we-need-MAG
kind of experiments, nay actually take them up, without consideration
to these basic issues?<br>
<br>
<br>
parminder<br>
<br>
Jeanette Hofmann wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:4B50BC0D.3050402@wzb.eu" type="cite">Hi
Parminder,
<br>
<br>
<br>
Parminder wrote:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Hi Jeanette,
<br>
<br>
The proposal continues to bother me a lot in its possible wider
ramifications. So excuse me to seek some clarifications, and engage in
a bit of debate on the issue.
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
I have no problem with that, on the contrary.
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Jeanette Hofmann wrote:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Hi,
<br>
<br>
we discussed some of the implications you mention below.
<br>
<br>
This year's meetings following the February meeting could be regarded
as an experiment to find out if a MAG is needed at all. </blockquote>
But why this experiment and not many others that could be attempted.
Like MAG taking a more pro-active role of doing more inter-sessional
work, preparing background papers etc - stuff which has been a part of
many a proposals for IGF evolution, including from the IGC. I think
this thing being done in the name of an experiment can be very
pre-emptive.
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Perhaps open planning meetings such as the
one we had in September 2009 are sufficient for setting the agenda;
perhaps the need for some sort of steering committee does arise,
perhaps not.
<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">The view that the MAG does and should only do
the narrow work of setting a very broad agenda </blockquote>
<br>
You are linking two things that seem to me indirectly connected: the
task(s) of the MAG and the selection of its membership. The idea to
open the MAG for its two meetings in May and June seemed a good idea as
it catches 2 birds with one stone. This way, we increase the
transparency of the MAG's work and we avoid the rotation process in the
face of an uncertain future. Everybody can join and help organize the
next meeting. Hence, opening up the meeting shouldn't have an impact on
the MAG's agenda or tasks.
<br>
<br>
presupposes that only one part of the WSIS mandate
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">for the IGF - acting as a policy discussion
space (and that too in a largely unstructured way) - is relevant and
should ever be attempted. This is what I mean by saying that the
'experiment' is pre-emptive. Without MAG - in fact ,without a MAG that
takes up a larger set of goals and activities - these other parts of
the IGF mandate can just not begun to be addressed.
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
After 4 years of MAG I would say that the interpretation of the MAG's
responsibilities depends to some degree on its (rotating) membership. I
can well imagine that the MAG or any other future advisory group might
consider taking over other tasks. If I understand you correctly,
Parminder, you imply that only a formally constituted group with a
exlusive membership could take over broader responsibilities? If so, I
havn't thought about this enough to agree or disagree with you on this.
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
Since it is unclear whether after 2010 there will be a new mandate for
an IGF and if so, whether the new IGF will continue to have a
secretariat and a non-bureau like preparatory structure, this year's
preparation seems to be a good opportunity to experiment with processes
that are more open and transparent and less burdensome.
<br>
</blockquote>
Burdensome! Well that depends on what we look to the IGF to achieve.
and it is well known that there are very different views on this
subject. So why a certain view at one end of the spectrum is made to
look like the obvious and natural one, and processes being described as
burdensome or not in relation to that view of the IGF's objective.
<br>
<br>
Any serious difficult work can look burdensome. Helping along global
policy making can look burdensome, but to others it may be immensely
necessary, and also mandated by the WSIS. IGC has often sought that
IGF/MAG does inter-sessional work, form WGs, develop background
material, make more specific agenda with specific questions of policy
(IRP dynamic coalition's recent statement too seeks this)... any of
this may look burdensome, but still be very necessary to evolve
towards. What happens to all those demands of the IGC and many others?
Why cant we do some experiment towards this direction rather than in
the opposite direction to it?
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
I remember that we have discussed this issue before. I also remember
that I disagreed with your view on the current state of things. In my
view, the regional IGFs are evolving into a bottom-up process of
inter-sessional meetings. The fact that they are geographically
organized doesn't mean that there is no link between them. What I like
about these regional efforts is that they were not centrally organized
but emerged from local initiatives. I think this is a much better way
of creating a dense network of IGF related processes and structures
than to empower a body such as the MAG to do so.
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">The annual rotation does involve a lot of
work for both the secretariat and all stakeholder groups.
<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Now, I dont see why simply extending the term
of the old MAG does not solve that problem. </blockquote>
<br>
As I said on the MAG list, I would find it unacceptable if the MAG
simply extended its term without asking those who nominated the present
members in the first place. The little reaction on the MAG list
suggests that not many members share this point of view. I'd assume
that the caucus would have loudly protested if we had just announced
that we wouldn't rotate this year but just serve another term. Rightly
so in my opinion.
<br>
<br>
<br>
Why should it entail an experiment to see if MAG is
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">at all necessary or not. </blockquote>
<br>
The question is whether or not the MAG needs to be an exclusive club.
You attended the meeting last September. It did work well, didn't it?
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">So, the 'do we even need a MAG' experiment
seems to not have much to do with the rotation issue, does it. </blockquote>
<br>
It does also reflect the open meeting in September. It is good to get
those who organize workshops and main session fully and early involved.
<br>
<br>
I leave at that. I think others should chip in as well.
<br>
<br>
jeanette
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
Second is the wrapping up of this issue in the very tempting cover of
more openness. (As an aside I may mention that many who seem to
support the no-MAG experiment did not support the proposal that the
discussion list of MAG be public, which is a contradiction if the
most pressing objective here may just be 'openness'.) Greater openness
and even participation is a very different issue than doing away
with a representative body, which may be required to accomplish many
task that cannot be done by 'open houses'. We all know there are many
such tasks, some of them stated above as expectations expressed by the
IGC from the IGF process.
<br>
<br>
So if we indeed want to explore experiments and people's views and
where to move forward from here, we can as well be posing questions
like
<br>
<br>
"Do you think IGF should accomplish certain objectives, beyond what it
may be achieving at present? If so. will it require a more structured
IGF, with an active core representative multistakeholder group steering
it?" <br>
And in the spirit of these questions experiment with a few different
activities and ways of work in the MAG, instead of a
do-we-need-a-MAG-at-all experiment.
<br>
<br>
Parminder
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
jeanette
<br>
<br>
Parminder wrote:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Hi All
<br>
<br>
I just now posted the following message to the IGF MAG list. More
openness is always welcome but there are also some larger structural
questions about the mandate and efficacy of the IGF which worry me
since the proposal of 'only open meetings' has been made in connection
with the need or not of renewing the MAG. I will posit these larger
questions a little later while I share my mentioned email. Parminder
<br>
<br>
(Disclosure: I am some kind of a member of the MAG system and am funded
for attending its meeting. However, to be fair to me, I was also funded
to attend the planning meeting in Sept which was *not* a MAG meeting.)
<br>
<br>
Dear Markus and others,
<br>
<br>
A couple of questions come to my mind regarding the new proposal which
could merit some discussion.
<br>
<br>
Does this mean that there will be no MAG post Feb? (I understand that
MAG could exist while there be only open planning meeting as in Sept
last.)
<br>
<br>
If so, have we looked at all the implication - tangible and intangible
- of there being no MAG in existence for a whole year in the run-up to
an IGF meeting, and during the meeting?
<br>
<br>
Does this in fact suggest that we could anyway more or less do without
a MAG, and a couple of open preparatory/ planning meetings in Geneva,
outcomes of which are culled/interpreted by the secretariat, is all
that is needed to hold the IGF and comply with the WSIS requirements?
<br>
<br>
Does trying out this practice in the year of possible structural
changes to the IGF - possibly taken up along with its renewal if it
comes - can have even more special significance?
<br>
<br>
Thanks and best regards
<br>
<br>
Parminder
<br>
<br>
<br>
Jeanette Hofmann wrote:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Hi,
<br>
<br>
the MAG started discussing the issue of rotation for this year. Some
people were in favor of an extended term for the present membership
because it is not clear if the IGF's mandate will be extended and,
should it be extended, under what terms. It could be that the MAG
meeting in May would be the only one for the new MAG.
<br>
<br>
I argued that the MAG or the secretariat should not decide on this
matter without consulting the various stakeholder groups. This
afternoon, Markus and I discussed the options and we came up with a
third solution. Markus just sent the following message to the MAG list
and asked me to forward it to the caucus list as well. I expect the
caucus will be happy about the proposed solution?
<br>
<br>
Dear colleagues,
<br>
<br>
Jeanette has got a point! It might not go down well if any decision
were taken in this matter without consulting the broader community!
However, as there is a distinct possibility that a renewed MAG will
hold one meeting only, there is also a strong argument against
launching the heavy rotation machinery just for the sake of this
principle.
<br>
<br>
I consulted with Jeanette and going through the pros and cons of both
approaches we both came to the conclusion that there might be a third
way. We both wondered whether there was any need for a closed meeting
at all in May. As last September's planning meeting went rather well,
we wondered whether we could not prepare most of this year's meeting in
an open process. By doing so, we would also take into account the calls
for more inclusiveness and transparency made during the consultation in
Sharm.
<br>
<br>
The MAG would thus meet a last time next month and set the agenda for
the Vilnius meeting. The programme could be fleshed out in two open
planning meetings in May and June.
<br>
<br>
This could also be an experiment in view of a possible renewal of the
mandate. Should the mandate be renewed, any decision on how to continue
could be taken in light of this experiment.
<br>
<br>
Please let me know what you think about this possible approach.
<br>
<br>
Best regards
<br>
Markus
<br>
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