For a person in extreme poverty is more important to have a bank account where he can receive funds from pulic and not public entities, than to have access to email or the Web.<br><br>So access should be understood not just access to email or web ( you must know to read and write before..., not just having infrastructure...), but being present on the internet.<br>
<br>And being present is having a bank account first!, and later other forms o presence.... (email, web access, etc).<br><br>That´s why the Costa Rican COngress is processing a bill (No. 15890) to add an additional fundamental right: "Having or not, virtual personality".<br>
<br>A bank account is a component of the virtual personality (also email acount, voicemail, etc, etc).<br><br>PD Eric: Like Michael G., I also have sometimes problems trying to understand your writings..., so I apreciate if you can "write for dumbs" in the future...., so I can understand more... ;-)<br>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">2009/11/20 Eric Dierker <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:cogitoergosum@sbcglobal.net">cogitoergosum@sbcglobal.net</a>></span><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
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<div>Perhaps then in a non boolean way you could answer the simple question;</div>
<div> </div>
<div>What concerns of your 5.5 were not addressed?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Seems like your looking for a hypothetical problem. Tell us what was not addressed.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>(please, as you pointed out this was not about medicine or public safety or plumbing -- so give us an example that is germaine to Internet Governance not tennis in the Hamptons)<br><br>--- On <b>Fri, 11/20/09, Michael Gurstein <i><<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com" target="_blank">gurstein@gmail.com</a>></i></b> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px;"><br>From: Michael Gurstein <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com" target="_blank">gurstein@gmail.com</a>><br>Subject: RE: [governance] FW: Internet Users Globally<br>
To: "'Eric Dierker'" <<a href="mailto:cogitoergosum@sbcglobal.net" target="_blank">cogitoergosum@sbcglobal.net</a>>, <a href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a>, "'linda misek-falkoff'" <<a href="mailto:ldmisekfalkoff@gmail.com" target="_blank">ldmisekfalkoff@gmail.com</a>><br>
Cc: "'l.d. misek-falkoff'" <<a href="mailto:ldmisekfalkoff@gmail.com" target="_blank">ldmisekfalkoff@gmail.com</a>>, <a href="mailto:respectful.interfaces@gmail.com" target="_blank">respectful.interfaces@gmail.com</a><br>
Date: Friday, November 20, 2009, 10:09 AM<div><div></div><div class="h5"><br><br>
<div>
<div><span><font size="2" color="#0000ff" face="Arial">Eric and all,</font></span></div>
<div><span><font size="2" color="#0000ff" face="Arial"></font></span> </div>
<div><span><font size="2" color="#0000ff" face="Arial">So far as I know, I/we are not dealing here with matters of formal Boolean logic but rather concerns with the significance and impact of Internet Governance in the real world.</font></span></div>
<div><span><font size="2" color="#0000ff" face="Arial"></font></span> </div>
<div><span><font size="2" color="#0000ff" face="Arial">My question was (and remains) whether the matters under discussion were of significance to the roughly 5.5 billion without current Internet access in the real world and not whether the issues themselves were impacted or not by the numbers of those having Internet access, a subject which I personally consider to be of no interest whatsoever.</font></span></div>
<div><span><font size="2" color="#0000ff" face="Arial"></font></span> </div>
<div><span><font size="2" color="#0000ff" face="Arial">Your arguments and the analysis of your (and my) arguments are to my mind complete red herrings.</font></span></div>
<div><span><font size="2" color="#0000ff" face="Arial"></font></span> </div>
<div><span><font size="2" color="#0000ff" face="Arial">MBG</font></span></div>
<blockquote style="margin-right: 0px;">
<div></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left" lang="en-us"><font size="2" face="Tahoma">-----Original Message-----<br><b>From:</b> Eric Dierker [mailto:<a href="mailto:cogitoergosum@sbcglobal.net" target="_blank">cogitoergosum@sbcglobal.net</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 19, 2009 11:06 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a>; linda misek-falkoff; Michael Gurstein<br><b>Cc:</b> l.d. misek-falkoff; <a href="mailto:respectful.interfaces@gmail.com" target="_blank">respectful.interfaces@gmail.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] FW: Internet Users Globally<br><br></font></div>
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<div>I believe and always have that saying things in a couple of different ways or languages or within differing social or cultural logics is most helpful. Your questions asks for a fair diagram of my antithesis in a straightforward manner. Fair enough.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>1. Does the percentage of actual users in a given set have a significant impact on the issues presented? Mr. Gurstein makes that connection.</div>
<div>2. My antithesis to the positive belief of Mr. Gurstein is that it does not matter how many users there are with regard to issues presented.</div>
<div>3. My conclusion is that the percentage of users within any jurisdiction did not in any way influence the issues addressed most recently.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>It is my observation that although not representative either by vote or election or life position, the members here and in general engaged in Internet Governance in fact do address the issues of the users and those effected and affected by the Internet. This suitable cadre of individuals in fact can see the large picture of protecting rights of non users as well as users and does in fact address those concerns.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>On a more appropriate observation -- I try very hard to remain as ignorant and ill informed as I can so that I can adequately represent others like me.<br><br>--- On <b>Thu, 11/19/09, linda misek-falkoff <i><<a href="mailto:ldmisekfalkoff@gmail.com" target="_blank">ldmisekfalkoff@gmail.com</a>></i></b> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px;"><br>From: linda misek-falkoff <<a href="mailto:ldmisekfalkoff@gmail.com" target="_blank">ldmisekfalkoff@gmail.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [governance] FW: Internet Users Globally<br>To: <a href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a>, "Michael Gurstein" <<a href="mailto:gurstein@gmail.com" target="_blank">gurstein@gmail.com</a>><br>
Cc: "Eric Dierker" <<a href="mailto:cogitoergosum@sbcglobal.net" target="_blank">cogitoergosum@sbcglobal.net</a>>, "l.d. misek-falkoff" <<a href="mailto:ldmisekfalkoff@gmail.com" target="_blank">ldmisekfalkoff@gmail.com</a>>, <a href="mailto:respectful.interfaces@gmail.com" target="_blank">respectful.interfaces@gmail.com</a><br>
Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 7:55 PM<br><br>
<div>
<div>Hi Michael, I was in my post, above, also delving for a minimalist description of the different approaches to topic here; so if you can clarify or wish to, in response to my post (by choice of course, and no need to explicitly use <i>thesis, antithesis, synthesis</i> if not seeming apt) - thanks. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>(I wouldn't ask Eric's artistic and exciting style and content to change a whit, or his wit to subside. But all of you here can probably parse out the points of view for initiates upon this request; would be quite welcome). </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Best wishes, Linda.<br><br></div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 2:18 PM, Michael Gurstein <span dir="ltr"><<a href="http://us.mc839.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=gurstein@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">gurstein@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Eric,<br><br>I have no idea what this sentence could possibly mean from any<br>perspective--development, social science, marketing, management--"Direct use<br>
<div>and consumption of a good or service is not any kind of test as to it's<br>viability or value to a society."<br><br></div>Anyway, since we aren't talking about syringes or police academies (???) but<br>
rather about access to the major and fundamental infrastructure of modern<br>society --<br><br>The unavailability of access is a major impediment to participation and<br>development... In my country, Canada, the fact that roughly 25% of the<br>
population is not accessing the Internet means that the range of public and<br>private services that have and are migrating to the Net are inaccessible for<br>use by those individuals leading either to the requirement for duplication<br>
of services (both manual and electronic) or to the denial of service (where<br>the service is available only in electronic form...<br><br>In the Cameroun (with which I'm not familiar) or in South Africa (with which<br>
I am familiar) lack of access to the Net means that
the 97.1% (the Cameroun)<br>or the 91.4% (South Africa) of the population not currently accessing/able<br>to access the Net prevents them from having access to the knowledge,<br>training, and support resources that are available to those with such<br>
access. Perhaps most important this means that the huge bulk of the<br>population is not sufficiently informatized as to make a direct contribution<br>to those activities which will spur local and national economic and social<br>
development. South Africa for example, has a significant net shortage of<br>those with sufficient skills to occupy available technical positions<br>necessary to maintain and extend the Information Society/Information<br>
Economy. That individuals, communities, local institutions are unable to<br>access the Net makes it all that much more difficult to bridge these gaps,<br>fill these slots and so on and so on.<br><br>All of which is to give me an opportunity to say
once again BTW, how<br>disappointed I am that there seems to have been little or no discussion at<br>the IGF (although simply observing from afar I may have missed it) about<br>issues of concern to the other 5.5 billion or so not currently accessing the<br>
Net.<br><br>MBG<br>
<div>
<div></div>
<div><br><br><br> On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 11:08 AM, Eric Dierker<br><<a href="http://us.mc839.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=cogitoergosum@sbcglobal.net" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">cogitoergosum@sbcglobal.net</a>> wrote:<br>
<br><br>This argument line is specious. Direct use and consumption of a good or<br>service is not any kind of test as to it's viability or value to a society.<br><br>Do we say that since only 2% of the population uses syringe(s) to inoculate<br>
thousands that the regulation and governance of medical appliances is not<br>relevant? Do we say that because only the supplier uses a telecommunication<br>device to supply food more efficiently and less expensive that the<br>
telecommunication device is not relevant to the eater?<br>Are police academies not relevant to the safety of a small child?<br><br>In fact the complete opposite is true. The need for intermediaries and those<br>skilled is the only reason to
allow all of us pontithicators to have any say<br>in governance. The fact that the hunter and gatherer brings home the food<br>from the forest does not obsolve or relinquish the right and duty of the<br>homemaker to manage his forest and fields. And since facts and opinions<br>
without study and understanding are more dangerous than helpful, I tolerate<br>all of you speaking for the consumer ;-) You all be careful that I do not<br>come up with an instant vaccine against ignorance, lest and whilst you be<br>
out of a job.<br><br><br>--- On Thu, 11/19/09, Nyangkwe Agien Aaron <<a href="http://us.mc839.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nyangkweagien@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">nyangkweagien@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br><br>From: Nyangkwe Agien Aaron <<a href="http://us.mc839.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nyangkweagien@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">nyangkweagien@gmail.com</a>><br>Subject: Re: [governance] FW: Internet Users
Globally<br>To: <a href="http://us.mc839.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=governance@lists.cpsr.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a>, "Michael Gurstein" <<a href="http://us.mc839.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=gurstein@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">gurstein@gmail.com</a>><br>
Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 10:42 AM<br><br><br><br>Many thanks Michael for the revelation.<br>I can now understand that despite the availability of an optical fibre<br>along the cost of my country Cameroun about 97.1% of my fellow country<br>
men and women do not use internet. Astonishing is the finding that<br>only 86.56 Senegalese do not have access to Internet.<br>And when you look at the per capita income of both countries!!!<br><br>Internet bandwith capacity in my office is here in Douala is 256/64<br>
<br>Aaon<br><br>On 11/18/09, Michael Gurstein <<a href="http://us.mc839.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=gurstein@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">gurstein@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>><br>>> For a very revealing application concerning Internet users by country go<br>
</div></div>>> to the<br>
<div>
<div></div>
<div>>><br>>> If you go to Google and put "Internet users in (your country of choice)"<br>>> into the search bar you will get the information graphed by year!<br>>><br>> I'm wondering how much of the discussion at this year's IGF was of<br>
relevance<br>> to the 99.19% of Malians who are not currently Internet users (or<br>similalry<br>> for 99.16% of Chadians, 89.49% of Bolivians, 92.8% of Indians, 98.18% of<br>> Papua New Guineans etc.etc.<br>><br>
>> MBG<br>><br><br><br>--<br>Aaron Agien Nyangkwe<br>Journalist-OutCome Mapper<br>Special Assistant The President<br>ASAFE<br>P.O.Box 5213<br>Douala-Cameroon<br><br>Tel. 237 3337 55 31, 3337 50 22<br>Fax. 237 3342 29 70<br>
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