<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;"><DIV>It would seem helpful to check your bald assertions at the door: "We are all very unhappy with our present 'representative' democratic governance regimes, and seek to add more participatory layers and levers to it."</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Clearly many are not unhappy, unless you gage happiness without looking at what people accept. And clearly many do not want layers and layers of bureaucracy.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>But as to your point, I completely agree. Perhaps the tools of governance are already in place and by trying to build a whole new regime just for the Internet we are doing a disservice to all who need renovation of representation in a holistic sense.<BR><BR>--- On <B>Wed, 10/7/09, <SPAN>Parminder</SPAN> <I><parminder@itforchange.net></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid"><BR>From: Parminder <parminder@itforchange.net><BR>Subject: Re: AW: [governance] ICANN/USG Affirmation of Commitments<BR>To: governance@lists.cpsr.org, ""Kleinwächter, Wolfgang"" <wolfgang.kleinwaechter@medienkomm.uni-halle.de><BR>Date: Wednesday, October 7, 2009, 4:51 AM<BR><BR>
<DIV id=yiv1495217068><FONT face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Wolfgang (and Avri and McTim)<BR><BR>We are all very unhappy with our present 'representative' democratic governance regimes, and seek to add more participatory layers and levers to it. You would not believe the kind of work being </FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">done </FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">or at least attempted in India on this. we are ourselves are strongly in some such project, known variously under the labels of 'deepening democracy', communitization, open government, or even participatory development processes. So, the virtue of improving governance system by enhancing participation cannot be claimed solely by certain global efforts, often with techno-centric notions of assumed equality of people to start with, highly individualized with disregard to </FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">social groups based
</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">exclusions, and also ignnoring many other structural issues. <BR><BR>In the specific context of governance of digital spaces (but also in the larger context) what is more significant ignored by these efforts or claims of new systems of direct and participatory democracy is the simultaneous, and strongly manifest, move towards corporates taking control of much of global 'governance' which to say the least is not democracy enhancing. They mostly just close their eyes to it. The neo-liberal system takes a lot of advantage of this fact, if not acquiescence. Multistakeholder models of policy making have been used in India to bring in monopolistic exploitative software models in schools in India and to lock in schools to paid commercial content rather than explore the best potential of collaborative content for schools....<BR><BR>I often and in a very engaged manner discuss the possibilities of new
participatory forms to enhance our democracies with anyone who share our fears of what neoliberlaism is, or use the simpler word corporates are, doing - not in one-off but a systematic manner - to the fibre and future of our democracies. I dont engage so well if I do not notice sensitivity (without needing to completely agree with me) to this issue on the other side.... This corresponds to the reaosn why so many who are so strongly engaged with promoting people's democracy or participative democracy, especially in developing countries (read about one of India foremost grassroots movements Mazdoor Kisan Shakti Sangathan) look askance at, in fact are mostly directly critical of, these new techno-centric visions of new forms of governance, without focusing enough on how their vision and efforts get placed in the overall struggle for democracy and social justice...<BR><BR>parminder <BR></FONT><BR>Kleinwächter, Wolfgang wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE>Dear Paul
you describe and defebnd the classical "representative democracy" of the 20th century. Good points. Very good points.
However, in the complexity of the 21st century the "chain of representation" gets longer and looner and there is less and less a direct relationship between the input of the people and the output of a government. Do you really believe, that a diplomat sitting in a UN meeting and discussing very concrete and difficult technical issue represents "her/his people"? In the best way she/he follows the instructions from her/his capital. In the worst sense she/he is doing wha she/he wants because nobody controls her/him. If she/he is a good guy you get a good solution. If she/he is a bad guy it is sad and bad.
What the Internet has enabled is to add a layer which can combine representative with participatory democracy. The principle of multistakeholderism is the very concrete outcome of this development. It is still very early and we are exploring how it could work. But going back to the past would be the wrong turn to meet the challenges of the future (with all respect to President Truman who also order the drop of the first nuclar bomb to Hiroshoma).
Best wishes
wolfgang
________________________________
Von: Paul Lehto [<A class=moz-txt-link-freetext href="http://us.mc839.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lehto.paul@gmail.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:lehto.paul@gmail.com">mailto:lehto.paul@gmail.com</A>]
Gesendet: Di 06.10.2009 18:52
An: <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="http://us.mc839.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=governance@lists.cpsr.org" target=_blank rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org">governance@lists.cpsr.org</A>; Avri Doria
Betreff: Re: [governance] ICANN/USG Affirmation of Commitments
Have you ever heard of the "consent of the governed?" There's more
than one way that consent of the governed can be achieved, but nobody
seriously believes and defends the position publicly that there's any
legitimate political authority outside some nexus to *elections* among
the people (such as electing representatives who then elect
ambassadors or delegates to an ICANN board or congress, etc.)
Are you, Avri Doria, really saying what it seems you're saying:
Elections are too difficult in your mind so they will be dispensed
with, or can be, in the interest of efficiency?
In any case, as President Harry Truman said "If you want efficiency,
you'll get a dictatorship."
This is because Democracy's core values don't always dictate
efficiency. In fact, things like separation of powers and checks and
balances are in fact redundant inefficiencies that a strongman
dictator could well streamline and save money and time on. Democracy,
by contrast, is a commitment to serial public discussions and votes
(and therefore disputes) lasting... forever -- or at least as long as
freedom and democracy lasts.
Paul Lehto, Juris Doctor
On 10/6/09, Avri Doria <A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E href="http://us.mc839.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=avri@psg.com" target=_blank rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:avri@psg.com"><avri@psg.com></A> wrote:
</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE>On 6 Oct 2009, at 11:57, Paul Lehto wrote:
</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE>The only
legitimate way to fully claim the public interest mantle is by having
a mandate via consent of the governed from the people as a whole.
</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE>does this mean that until everyone in the world votes, ICANN will
never be legitimate according to you?
a.
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</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE>--
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</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR>-----Inline Attachment Follows-----<BR><BR>
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