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Bertrand, you intervention in this discussion might also help in case there is a difference in the concept of "institution" in French and in English..<div>My point is not with the global or not global nature of ICANN. It is rather with qualifying it or not as an "institution". </div><div>I already acknowledged that it makes global decision, impacting the whole world: not sure it makes it truly global, but sort of. I also acknowledge that, say, a really big multinational firm (whatever its sector of activity: finance, security/military, industry, service..) could be a global entity, in the same sense.</div><div>But an institution, at least in my understanding, has something to do with social order. For better or for worse (an institution is not necessarily democratic), but its purpose is social (like in society, not necessarily like in social justice).</div><div>I don't think ICANN has any social purpose. Not that it doesn't deal with issues having highly social implications -- it does, but the point is that it has NOT been designed as such. And, to be honest, I don't think there is any reasonable hope to modify it so that its start looking like an institution.</div><div><br></div><div>Hope this starts answering your questions, and that this might explain why I think CS (nor governments, BTW) shouldn't *participate* in its processes since, yes, they legitimize it this way, and they make it somewhat look like an institution, when it is not, and wont become, in my opinion.</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div>Meryem</div><div><br><div><div>Le 20 sept. 09 à 18:34, Bertrand de La Chapelle a écrit :</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">Dear Meryem,<br><br>Looking at your interesting exchange with Milton regarding the "global" or non global nature of ICANN, I'd like to ask two complementary questions : <br>- what would be required in your view to make ICANN truly global ? what kind of modification ?<br> - and can such an outcome be obtained without participating in ICANN's processes, (which brings the risk of legitimizing it, if I understand you well) ?<br><br>These questions are not jokes. I think you both touch upon very difficult issues that a lot of people are grappling with. I sincerely am interested in practical suggestions. The issue of ICANN's accountability to all stakeholders will be high on the agenda in the post-JPA framework. <br> <br>Best<br><br>Bertrand<br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div class="im"><br> <br> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> The whole point with ICANN in this discussion is that it is NOT a<br> "global institution".<br> </blockquote> <br> Not sure what you mean here. If its effects are global and it is institutionalized it is, in my definition, a global institution. And ICANN more or less meets both criteria. I am sure you understand that no global polity will spring perfectly into being.<br> </blockquote> <br></div> Sure. But my definition is different from yours. I think ICANN is an organization, led and driven by private companies and interests (including multi-nationals), still having to be somewhat accountable to the US gov, but willing to get rid of this. Well, this is quickly written and misses many details and subtleties, but that's to explain why, in my opinion, it doesn't fit any acceptable definition of a global institution. I think your definition is too inclusive here.<div class="im"> <br> <br> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> rules. Because if you enter it, you back it, whatever the genuineness<br> of your intentions and efforts.<br> </blockquote> <br> Yes, one does have to make choices. If it's a choice between the DNS and IP addresses being taken over by states/IGOs or some modification and evolution of the ICANN/RIR regime I've made my choice.<br> </blockquote> <br></div> You fall into this again. I've thought we've gone beyond the ICANN vs. ITU debate?<div><div></div><div class="h5"><br> <br> <br> <br> ____________________________________________________________<br> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a><br> To be removed from the list, send any message to:<br> <a href="mailto:governance-unsubscribe@lists.cpsr.org" target="_blank">governance-unsubscribe@lists.cpsr.org</a><br> <br> For all list information and functions, see:<br> <a href="http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance" target="_blank">http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance</a><br> </div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>____________________<br>Bertrand de La Chapelle<br>Délégué Spécial pour la Société de l'Information / Special Envoy for the Information Society<br>Ministère des Affaires Etrangères et Européennes/ French Ministry of Foreign and European Affairs<br> Tel : +33 (0)6 11 88 33 32<br><br>"Le plus beau métier des hommes, c'est d'unir les hommes" Antoine de Saint Exupéry<br>("there is no greater mission for humans than uniting humans")<br><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">____________________________________________________________</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">You received this message as a subscriber on the list:</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">To be removed from the list, send any message to:</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:governance-unsubscribe@lists.cpsr.org">governance-unsubscribe@lists.cpsr.org</a></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">For all list information and functions, see:</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance">http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance</a></div> </blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>