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<font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Shaila<br>
<br>
thanks for your edit.<br>
<br>
However regarding the edited text below<br>
<br>
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<p style="margin-bottom: 0cm;"><font face="Arial, sans-serif"><font
size="2">>The Caucus
[and undersigned DCs] would like to volunteer active involvement with
the organizers of the main plenary sessions to do this, and
would >like to support all stakeholders through providing relevant
guidelines and experts from private and public sector.s and civil
society..</font></font></p>
<br>
<font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">I much prefer the original,
which is<br>
<br>
</font>
<pre wrap="">>The Caucus [and undersigned DCs] would like to offer assistance to the organisers of the main plenary sessions to do this, and would like >to support all stakeholders through providing access to relevant guidelines and experts.</pre>
<br>
<font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">I cant see why or how can
IGC be offering experts from the private and public sectors. (In any
case, I see any person employed in any private enterprise offering
expertise that is purely for public interest, and that is completely
detached from the interests of the private entity, as doing so in the
capacity of a civil society member.) I also prefer the term
'assistance' to 'volunteer active involvement'. Thanks.<br>
<br>
parminder <br>
</font><br>
<br>
shaila mistry wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:715739.30335.qm@web55206.mail.re4.yahoo.com"
type="cite">
<style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style>
<div
style="font-family: bookman old style,new york,times,serif; font-size: 10pt;">
<div>Many apologies...I meant STRENGTHEN... as in add strength....
not straighten..glad I spotted this !!!</div>
<div>shaila</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: bookman old style,new york,times,serif;">
<div
style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif;">
<div
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: bookman old style,new york,times,serif;">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Hi Lisa and Max and
everyone.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Thank you all for this
combined effort. I was out of town and just got back and wanted to make
a few suggestions. Hope I am not too late.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">I apologize for the
lateness of my comments. I have made a few suggested changes to Draft
5 as posted by Lisa. My intention was to straightened the statement.
Please feel free to edit as you see fit. I just felt that we can
present our cause for human rights with greater determination.. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">I went to look for this
on the website but could not access it .</span><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">I have cut and paste
below, in addition I have attached the file so that the changes are
tracked.Also corrected some typo's</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"></span> regards </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;">Shaila </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">DRAFT STATEMENT (V5).<font
color="#0000ff">edited in blue by Shaila Rao Mistry 9-9-09<br>
</font><br>
The Caucus [and undersigned DCs] repeat their request that the<br>
programme for IGF-4 in Egypt gives <font color="#0000bf">greater</font>
priority </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">to human rights. The
WSIS Declaration and Tunis Agenda <font color="#0000bf">strongly</font>
reaffirmed the centrality<br>
of human rights in the information society, <font color="#0000bf">despite
</font>this <span> </span>human rights and<br>
associated principles have received too little attention at the IGF so<br>
far. This is problematic <font color="#0000ff">because :<br>
</font><br>
* <span class="yshortcuts">Fundamental human rights</span> such as
the rights to freedom of<br>
expression, privacy, civic participation, education and the right to<br>
development are strongly threatened by actions and restrictive policies<br>
of a growing number of actors vis a vis the internet, including state<br>
and private actors at both national as well as global levels.<br>
* The internet presents new opportunities for upholding and<br>
advancing human rights, for example through enhancing access to<br>
knowledge and common resources. It is vital that we build on and enhance<br>
these opportunities. <font color="#0000bf">Ignoring <span> </span>these
avenues to uphold human rights implies a serious opportunity cost for
the well being of peoples, globally.<br>
</font>* <span class="yshortcuts">International human rights</span>,
as contained in the <span class="yshortcuts">Universal</span><br>
<span class="yshortcuts">Declaration of Human Rights</span> and
confirmed by the core <span class="yshortcuts">human rights</span><br>
<span class="yshortcuts">treaties</span> and other <span
class="yshortcuts">universal human rights</span> instruments, are
legally<br>
binding. The growing role of information and communication technologies<br>
has not changed the legal obligation of states having ratified these<br>
instruments to respect, protect and implement the human rights of their<br>
citizens.<br>
* The human rights framework is an internationally agreed set of<br>
standards that has practical as well as <span class="yshortcuts">ethical
value</span>. It balances<br>
different rights against each other to preserve individual and public<br>
interest. In addition to its legally binding implications, human rights<br>
are therefore a useful tool for addressing <span class="yshortcuts">internet
governance issues</span>,<br>
such as how to deal with security concerns on the internet in compliance<br>
with the rights to freedom of expression and privacy. Besides stating<br>
the obligations of states and governments, the human rights framework<br>
also allows us to derive the rights and responsibilities of other<br>
stakeholders. <br>
<br>
The Internet <span class="yshortcuts">Governance</span> Caucus [and
undersigned DCs] call for the human<br>
rights dimension of all internet governance issues to be included in the<br>
planning and implementation of all <font color="#0000bf">future </font>IGF
sessions, so that human rights<br>
are given the attention they deserve as cross-cutting issues. This<br>
should include explicit consideration of how global, regional and<br>
<span class="yshortcuts">national policies</span> affect human
rights, and the development of positive<br>
policy principles to build an open and accessible internet for all. The<br>
Caucus [and undersigned DCs] would like to <font color="#0000bf">volunteer
active involvement</font> <span> </span>with the<br>
organizers of the main plenary sessions <span> </span>to do this, and
would like to<br>
support all stakeholders through providing <span> </span>relevant
guidelines<br>
and experts <font color="#0000bf">from private and public sector.s and
civil society..</font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"><font color="#0000bf">The
IRP and the Caucus see this upcoming IGF in Egypt and future IGFs as </font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"><font color="#0000bf">renewed
opportunity to </font></span><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"><font color="#0000bf">make
Rights and Principles a core theme.<br>
</font><br>
</span></p>
<div>thanks</div>
<div>Shaila<br>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><font size="1"><strong><span
style="font-size: 8pt; color: blue;">Life is too short ....challenge
the rules</span></strong><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;"></span></b></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><font size="1"><strong><span
style="font-size: 8pt; color: blue;">Forgive quickly ... love truly
...and tenderly</span></strong><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;"></span></b></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><font size="1"><strong><span
style="font-size: 8pt; color: blue;">Laugh constantly.....and never
stop dreaming! </span></strong><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; color: black;"></span></b></font></p>
<p>
</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p><font color="#6000bf"
face="bookman old style, new york, times, serif" size="1"> </font></p>
<p
style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: bookman old style,new york,times,serif;"> </p>
<p><font color="#6000bf" face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="1"> </font></p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p><font color="#7f003f"
face="times new roman, new york, times, serif"><br>
</font> </p>
<p><font size="2"> </font></p>
<p><font size="2"> </font></p>
<p> </p>
<p><font size="2"> </font></p>
<p><span></span></p>
<p> </p>
<div>
<div style="color: rgb(64, 0, 127);"><font face="comic sans ms"><strong>
<div style="font-weight: normal; color: rgb(127, 0, 127);"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: comic sans ms;"><font
face="comic sans ms"><strong></strong></font></span> </div>
<div><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: comic sans ms;"><font
face="comic sans ms"><strong></strong></font></span> </div>
</strong></font></div>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: bookman old style,new york,times,serif;"><br>
<div style="font-size: 13px; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font
face="Tahoma" size="2">
<hr size="1"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b>
Lisa Horner <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lisa@global-partners.co.uk"><lisa@global-partners.co.uk></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday,
September 9, 2009 9:56:29 AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> RE:
[governance] Statement by IGC supporting rights and principles<br>
</font><br>
Thanks for your detailed comments Paul - really useful and make sense.<br>
<br>
Since that posting, we've come up with a new draft that emphasizes that<br>
rights are legally binding. I hope it addresses your concerns.<br>
<br>
Wolfgang - you said you didn't understand what we mean in the last<br>
sentence. In my view, the idea would be to provide session organizers<br>
with access to information and experts in the IGC who can help them to<br>
consider the human rights dimensions of the issues that they are<br>
discussing. Does that make sense? I tried to incorporate the gist of<br>
your comments as best I could, given that you were working with an<br>
earlier version.<br>
<br>
I've pasted a new draft (v5) below, incorporating the comments we've had<br>
today.<br>
<br>
The deadline for comments is 0900 CET tomorrow, and I hope we're moving<br>
towards consensus...<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Lisa<br>
<br>
--------------------<br>
<br>
DRAFT STATEMENT (V5).<br>
<br>
The Caucus [and undersigned DCs] repeat their request that the<br>
programme for IGF-4 in Egypt gives the required attention to human<br>
rights. The WSIS Declaration and Tunis Agenda reaffirmed the centrality<br>
of human rights in the information society, but human rights and<br>
associated principles have received too little attention at the IGF so<br>
far. This is problematic as:<br>
<br>
* Fundamental human rights such as the rights to freedom of<br>
expression, privacy, civic participation, education and the right to<br>
development are strongly threatened by actions and restrictive policies<br>
of a growing number of actors vis a vis the internet, including state<br>
and private actors at both national as well as global levels.<br>
* The internet presents new opportunities for upholding and<br>
advancing human rights, for example through enhancing access to<br>
knowledge and common resources. It is vital that we build on and enhance<br>
these opportunities.<br>
* International human rights, as contained in the Universal<br>
Declaration of Human Rights and confirmed by the core human rights<br>
treaties and other universal human rights instruments, are legally<br>
binding. The growing role of information and communication technologies<br>
has not changed the legal obligation of states having ratified these<br>
instruments to respect, protect and implement the human rights of their<br>
citizens.<br>
* The human rights framework is an internationally agreed set of<br>
standards that has practical as well as ethical value. It balances<br>
different rights against each other to preserve individual and public<br>
interest. In addition to its legally binding implications, human rights<br>
are therefore a useful tool for addressing internet governance issues,<br>
such as how to deal with security concerns on the internet in compliance<br>
with the rights to freedom of expression and privacy. Besides stating<br>
the obligations of states and governments, the human rights framework<br>
also allows us to derive the rights and responsibilities of other<br>
stakeholders. <br>
<br>
The Internet Governance Caucus [and undersigned DCs] call for the human<br>
rights dimension of all internet governance issues to be included in the<br>
planning and implementation of all IGF sessions, so that human rights<br>
are given the attention they deserve as cross-cutting issues. This<br>
should include explicit consideration of how global, regional and<br>
national policies affect human rights, and the development of positive<br>
policy principles to build an open and accessible internet for all. The<br>
Caucus [and undersigned DCs] would like to offer assistance to the<br>
organisers of the main plenary sessions to do this, and would like to<br>
support all stakeholders through providing access to relevant guidelines<br>
and experts.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Paul Lehto [mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:lehto.paul@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"
ymailto="mailto:lehto.paul@gmail.com">lehto.paul@gmail.com</a>] <br>
Sent: 09 September 2009 17:38<br>
To: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org"
target="_blank" rel="nofollow"
ymailto="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a>;
Lisa Horner<br>
Subject: Re: [governance] Statement by IGC supporting rights and<br>
principles<br>
<br>
In the draft IGC statement below, it refers to the "human rights<br>
*framework*" (emphasis mine) and then characterizes this framework<br>
with words and phrases like "internationally accepted set of<br>
standards" and "has practical as well as ethical value", constitutes<br>
"guidelines" or "tools" and, in a prior paragraph, refers to<br>
"opportunities to uphold" human rights in certain areas being "vital."<br>
<br>
All of these phrases understate the actual binding status of human<br>
rights, even while appearing to stress its "vital" importance (a word<br>
that, unfortunately, almost any lobbyist on any issue no matter how<br>
mundane will often attempt to claim). In general, it is much stronger<br>
to be urging the enforcement and upholding of current law (the case<br>
with human rights) because there is a duty to uphold it, than it is to<br>
be urging the adoption of a new law or the application of a "standard"<br>
to a new issue, because those are optional or at the discretion of the<br>
person or entity being urged to take appropriate action.<br>
<br>
The true status of international human rights is more as follows:<br>
<br>
(1) Anything less than rigorous and liberal interpretation of the<br>
rights and principles ultimately means that national or global society<br>
goes off course, because they've either ignored or understated their<br>
most important rights and principles, instead of vindicating and<br>
respecting them at all times. Ignoring rights and principles, even<br>
if unitentional and even if only in part, is ultimately deadly, and<br>
often deadly quite soon.<br>
<br>
(2) When these rights take the form of constitutional law, as they do<br>
in the USA in which treaty obligations are higher federal<br>
constitutional law, they are supreme law three separate ways: (1) as<br>
federal law, under the Supremacy clause of the US Constitution higher<br>
than state law, (2) as constitutional law, in corporated by reference<br>
into the Constitution, and (3) as international law, recognized as<br>
supreme by the US Constitution itself, expreslly in the case of treaty<br>
ratification, and even without treaty ratification where core human<br>
rights amounting to war crimes are involved (see Justice Jackson's<br>
opening statement at Nuremberg, stating the principles equally<br>
applicable to the victors in WWII as they were to the Germans).<br>
<br>
(3) Human rights and their necessary correlative principles are<br>
nothing less than existing and binding LAW that almost all the<br>
countries of the world have even specifically consented to, via treaty<br>
ratification procedures. Nobody is free to ignore them. Nobody is<br>
free to treat actual or alleged violations of human rights as if they<br>
were optional "opportunities" to behave correctly.<br>
<br>
(4) In the context of a relatively new technology, new contexts for<br>
issues do arise, but it is the same old rights and principles that are<br>
applied in the new context, so as to vindicate the underlying<br>
principles, even if the doctrine ends up changing to accomodate the<br>
new context.<br>
<br>
(5) In light of the above, the "opportunities" "to uphold" are in fact<br>
binding legal requirements to uphold. "Uphold" is often a word used<br>
in oaths, and it implies not only compliance with a constitutional<br>
scheme but more than that: It obliges the person taking the oath to a<br>
"holding up" -- in veneration -- of the binding principles, just as a<br>
trustee would be expected to do, who holds and exercises rights on<br>
behalf of another (We the People). Upholding rights means giving them<br>
wide sway out of respect, not simply lawyering it to death in order to<br>
narrow or eliminate its effects, while all the while claiming to<br>
respect the rights. If this latter sense is the intent of the phrase<br>
"opportunities to uphold" then it would be ok, IMHO, provided it is<br>
joined with a stronger statement that makes clear that compliance with<br>
the law is not an option, it's a binding requirement of law.<br>
<br>
(6) FWIW, treaty signature is not always required even though it<br>
exists in the case of human rights generally speaking. In the case of<br>
the most fundamental rights like anti-slavery, and the prohibitions on<br>
torture, mistreatment of prisoners and on genocide, the international<br>
law prohibiting these is binding even without treaty ratification,<br>
under the jus cogens principles of international law (one of the bases<br>
of war crimes tribunals, to which failure to ratify a treaty is no<br>
defense). The alleged fact, for example, that one was ordered to<br>
violate these rights is no defense to a charge for their violation.<br>
(See Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal, for example, in which the Chief<br>
Justice Jackson there also specifically states that these principles<br>
apply just as much to the victorious countries in WWII as they did to<br>
the Germans).<br>
<br>
As always, the violation of a right does not mean that the right<br>
doesn't exist. Some may detect violations in the area of war crimes<br>
in recent US history. No amount of violations will make the right go<br>
away, even if violated at the highest levels. After all, especially in<br>
the area of war crimes, one often sees an entire nation's apparatus<br>
perverted to accomplish rights denials of the most atrocious kinds.<br>
If the violations themselves did anything to diminish the actual<br>
rights in question, the Nazis would have gotten off scot free at<br>
Nuremberg in addition to having a "nice" run of it for approaching two<br>
decades.<br>
<br>
In general, I favor not "lobbying" people to apply human rights LAWS,<br>
but rather to urge them to do their **duty**, do their job, and uphold<br>
their oaths (if applicable) by following human rights laws, upholding<br>
them vigorously, and giving them a reasonably expansive<br>
interpretation whenever a range of possible meanings exist.<br>
<br>
Paul Lehto, Juris Doctor<br>
<br>
On 9/2/09, Lisa Horner <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:lisa@global-partners.co.uk" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"
ymailto="mailto:lisa@global-partners.co.uk">lisa@global-partners.co.uk</a>>
wrote:<br>
> Hi all<br>
><br>
> I've pasted a statement below for discussion. I've tried to
explain<br>
(a) why<br>
> it's important to consider rights and principles and (b) what we
think<br>
> should be done. Over to everyone else for comments and edits.<br>
><br>
> Anja - thanks for your thoughts. In response to yours and Ginger's<br>
comments<br>
> I only included the suggestion of offering to work with people to<br>
ensure<br>
> that rights issues are addressed. In relation to your last comment<br>
about<br>
> being more explicit about violations and commitments, I personally<br>
think we<br>
> should try and present the rights and principles discussion in<br>
positive<br>
> rather than negative terms in a statement like this. Whilst we
should<br>
of<br>
> course be clear on what standards are and what constitutes
violation<br>
of<br>
> them, I think we want to encourage widespread participation and<br>
engagement<br>
> with the issues rather than scare people off? Rather than
including<br>
it in<br>
> this statement, maybe we could do something else, for example start<br>
> compiling a list of violations to circulate at the IGF or to
include<br>
as<br>
> guidance for session organizers?<br>
><br>
> As usual, please edit directly or send through explicit suggestions<br>
for<br>
> changes rather than more general opinion which can be more
difficult<br>
to<br>
> incorporate into amendments.<br>
><br>
> Does next Thursday 10th September sound ok as a deadline for this?<br>
><br>
> All the best,<br>
> Lisa<br>
><br>
> --------------------<br>
><br>
> DRAFT STATEMENT<br>
><br>
> The following statement is submitted on behalf of the Civil Society<br>
Internet<br>
> Governance Caucus.<br>
><br>
> The Caucus requests that the human rights are given adequate
attention<br>
in<br>
> the programme for IGF-4 in Egypt. The WSIS Declaration and Tunis<br>
Agenda<br>
> reaffirmed the importance of human rights in the information
society,<br>
but<br>
> human rights and associated principles have received very little<br>
attention<br>
> at the IGF. This is problematic as:<br>
> * Fundamental human rights including freedom of expression and<br>
privacy are<br>
> threatened by current internet governance processes and practice.<br>
> * The internet presents new opportunities for upholding and<br>
advancing human<br>
> rights, for example through enhancing access to knowledge and<br>
resources. It<br>
> is vital that we build on and enhance these opportunities.<br>
> * The human rights framework is an internationally accepted set
of<br>
standards<br>
> that has practical as well as ethical value. It contains
guidelines<br>
on how<br>
> to balance different rights against each other to preserve
individual<br>
and<br>
> public interest. This makes it a useful tool for addressing
internet<br>
> governance issues, such as how to balance freedom of expression
with<br>
> concerns for security on the internet. The framework also
considers<br>
both<br>
> rights and responsibilities of different stakeholders.<br>
><br>
> The Internet Governance Caucus calls for human rights issues to be<br>
addressed<br>
> during the planning and implementation of all IGF sessions. This<br>
should<br>
> include explicit consideration of how policies affect fundamental<br>
rights,<br>
> and the development of positive policy principles to build an open
and<br>
> accessible internet for all. The Caucus would like to offer<br>
assistance to<br>
> the organisers of the main plenary sessions to do this, and would
like<br>
to<br>
> support all stakeholders through providing access to relevant<br>
guidelines and<br>
> experts.<br>
><br>
> --------------------------------------------------------<br>
> -----Original Message-----<br>
> From: Anja Kovacs [mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:anja@cis-india.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"
ymailto="mailto:anja@cis-india.org">anja@cis-india.org</a>]<br>
> Sent: 01 September 2009 11:49<br>
> To: governance<br>
> Subject: Re: [governance] Statement by IGC supporting rights and<br>
principles<br>
><br>
> Dear all,<br>
><br>
> Sorry for responding to this belatedly - I was travelling last week<br>
with<br>
> only sporadic, very slow, Internet access.<br>
><br>
> Thanks Lisa, for these excellent suggestions, and for offering to<br>
draft<br>
> a text. There were just two things I wanted to note. In terms of<br>
> strategy, I have been wondering whether it would perhaps be wiser
not<br>
to<br>
> include in the statement a request for space in the emerging issues<br>
> session to reflect on the meaning of "rights and principles". Why,<br>
> after all, discuss the meaning of rights and principles in the last<br>
> session, if we have already integrated rights and principles and
their<br>
> implications in IG practice in all preceding ones? If wider
support<br>
for<br>
> putting the rights debate back on the official IGF agenda does
emerge<br>
> during the planning meeting, this particular suggestion would make
it<br>
> too easy for those opposing such attention to ensure that this<br>
> discussion is relegated once again to this one session at the very
end<br>
> of the IGF. If, at the planning meeting, we get the sense that a<br>
> discussion in the emerging issues sessions is probably the best we
can<br>
> get, we can always still make this suggestion right there and then,<br>
> rather than including it in a written statement already now.<br>
><br>
> I have also been wondering whether it is time that we start using<br>
> somewhat stronger language and explicitly remind governments not
only<br>
of<br>
> the international commitments to human rights that they have made,
but<br>
> also of the fact that not actively working to uphold such
commitments<br>
> effectively amounts to condoning rights violations - or am I being
too<br>
> impatient here? Such a phrasing would of course implicate a
country<br>
> like France as much as it would, say, China.<br>
><br>
> Cheers,<br>
> Anja<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
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<br>
-- <br>
Paul R Lehto, J.D.<br>
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