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<font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">No, I wont appeal. i give my
word :).<br>
<br>
I leave it to the co-coordinators to decide both on the present issue
of voters list for charter amendment, and to sort out the wider
membership issue if they wish to. Parminder <br>
</font><br>
Avri Doria wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:46EC4286-F345-4D18-93E0-1F5A6F4435E5@psg.com"
type="cite">i disagree.
<br>
i guess one of us will be appealing which ever way they go.
<br>
<br>
a.
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 25 Aug 2009, at 09:53, Parminder wrote:
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Avri
<br>
<br>
>...so while it seems clear to me that anyone who ever voted, on the
first charter or any of the elections is on the >published members
list and is entitled to > vote and, almost as important, is part of
the total membership count >that determines what 2/3 of members is
equal to...
<br>
<br>
How much ever I may like to agree with you, the charter is clear that
only those who voted in *the* and not *any* previous election are
eligible to vote for charter amendment.
<br>
<br>
In our earlier long discussions on IGC membership criteria I had
mentioned a couple of times that this could become a problem criterion.
Also for this reason we mentioned on the ballot when Ian got elected
that one *had* to vote to be able to be eligible to vote for any
ensuing charter amendment.
<br>
<br>
I agree with Fearghas that it is odd that membership of IGC should
depend on a random event which may or may not happen at regular
intervals. I also agree with Ronald that we should do 'a more regular
"count" of who is a member and who isn't'.
<br>
<br>
This basically also goes to the question we argued so long on this list
that everybody got fed up - should aspiring IGC members not be able to
just write to coordinators affirming the charter and seeking IGC
membership, rather only being able to do so on the ballot paper, which
if they miss, well....
<br>
<br>
This still doesnt solve the present problem about charter wording on
eligibility for charter amendment voting, but if we regularize how IGC
membership is obtained/ ascertained etc, we can write new text in the
charter which could make clear and workable provisions for voting
eligibility for charter amendment.
<br>
<br>
For the present I am afraid, it is my understanding that the
co-coordinators will need to go by the clear wording of the charter for
such an important matter as amending the charter. It is not the ideal
situation. I want all long standing members to vote. But we should take
up charter amendment for that.
<br>
<br>
My two cents.
<br>
<br>
parminder
<br>
<br>
<br>
Avri Doria wrote:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
hi,
<br>
<br>
my opinions on two of the subject being discussed
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">If it was fixed in the middle, say 6-8
months on the list, that would be understandable but I don't see why
such a wide ranging period of time is acceptable.
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
the capture criteria was not time based but was based on having made
the commitment for reasons others then changing the charter. so yes,
the time ends up being variable.
<br>
<br>
at some point everyone on the voting list made a commitment to the IGC
and its charter. either they voted on the original charter when it was
written, or they voted in one of the elections. that means they are on
the list of members that resulted at the end of the last elections.
<br>
<br>
the charter treats decision related to the coordinators differently
then those related to the charter. other then one being based on time
criteria and one based on activity criteria, decision related to
coordinators, either voting them in or out are based on 2/3 of voters,
while the charter decsions are 2.3 of members.
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">who write about governance contrive who
should be eligible to vote and change rules to effect who they want to
have a vote
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
that is a misstatement of what is going on. the charter is not a
library full of law books were every single possible detail is spelled
out in gory detail. there are all sorts of border conditions that may
require human judgement. one of the things we expect from the
coordinators is this judgement. when we elect the coordinators, we
are electing people we trust to make these judgement when called upon
to do so.
<br>
<br>
but since judgement can sometimes be wrong no matter how trustworthy
the individual and can sometimes be arbitrary, we have an appeals team
so that that judgement can be judged and overruled if it is ever
necessary to do so. and the appeals team even has the ability to
decide that the person serving as coordinator is so flawed that the
community needs to reconsider that person's fitness as coordinator. we
have not used these mechanisms yet and i hope we never do, but they are
there to make sure that the will of the members is adhered to (i.e the
democratic criteria and the check and balances).
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">any rules should be followed properly,
and doing that may require a more regular "count" of who is a member
and who isn't. Something for the co-ordinators to consider.
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
i believe that is what they are trying to do. we have a posted voters
list on the web site. now some people have left the list and come
back. does this mean they are no longer members? or some people have
quit because they could not stand the way the list was going because we
do seem to have lost our way on occasion and then come back; are they
no longer members? and some people have left the list because some of
the discussion have been so disgusting to them; are they no longer
members?
<br>
<br>
(an aside anyone who wants to stop receiving email can just stop the
email for a while - the vacation feature - without quitting. you can
do it yourself or can ask any of the list servants to take care of it.
as one of those list servants, i would be more then happy to explain
how to do it yourself or to do it for you. and before anyone asks who
the list servants are: they are ex coordinators who did the list
serving at the time of being coordinators and who weren't so disgusted
when the left that position that they kept doing it even after their
terms had ended. we do it at the sufferance of the current coordinators
who can kick us to the curb anytime they want to.)
<br>
<br>
so while it seems clear to me that anyone who ever voted, on the first
charter or any of the elections is on the published members list and is
entitled to vote and, almost as important, is part of the total
membership count that determines what 2/3 of members is equal to - i.e.
the threshold necessary for a successful amendment. on anything that
is not covered specifically, the border cases i referred to previously,
the coordinators have the responsibility and liability of making a
judgement. and if we members think they blew it, then we have the
opportunity to ask the appeals team to review their decision.
<br>
<br>
a.
<br>
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</blockquote>
</blockquote>
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