<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<TITLE>Message</TITLE>
<META name=GENERATOR content="MSHTML 8.00.6001.18813"></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN class=779423502-16082009>Rather
than attempting to deal with personalities/intentions (viz. "trolls/trollism") I
think we should focus on acceptable/unacceptable behaviours.
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=779423502-16082009></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN class=779423502-16082009>In the
lists I've hosted over the years I've adopted the "living room rule" i.e. any
behaviour that I wouldn't accept in my living room I won't accept on an e-list
that I host...</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=779423502-16082009></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN class=779423502-16082009>The
kind of mocking/goading/personalized attacking behaviour that is evidenced below
and by emails coming from several new members of the list is to my mind
unacceptable as it acts to intimidate/bully and otherwise close off discussion
and restrict participation.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=779423502-16082009></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN class=779423502-16082009>I
would suggest that the co-moderators of the list introduce arbitrarily or
otherwise some limits on acceptable list behaviour (attacks on the person not on
the idea for example) and after appropriate warning remove offenders from the
list accordingly. This is not censorship, rather it is self-preservation
and necessary for the on-going effective functioning of this
group.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=779423502-16082009></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=779423502-16082009>MBG</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr lang=en-us class=OutlookMessageHeader align=left><FONT size=2
face=Tahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
publicroot.info@gmail.com [mailto:publicroot.info@gmail.com] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Joe Baptista<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, August 15, 2009 7:05
PM<BR><B>To:</B> Milton L Mueller;
governance@lists.cpsr.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Milton don't start with the
private email. Re: [governance] Trying to<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><BR>Milton i'm
not a big fan of private email with elitist intellectuals. I'm holding you
accountable here in your public role.<BR><BR>
<DIV><SPAN class=gmail_quote>On 8/15/09, <B class=gmail_sendername>Milton L
Mueller</B> <<A href="mailto:mueller@syr.edu">mueller@syr.edu</A>>
wrote:</SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV lang=EN-US vlink="blue" link="blue">
<DIV>
<P><FONT color=navy size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Opposition to
posting limits is not advocacy of censorship, Joe.
</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR>Mendacem memorem esse oporte. Don't pull this argumentative nonsense
with me. Focus Milton. Focus. You are an elitist intellectual leader here. You
set the minimum standards - abera lege?<BR><BR>You are seen here as a leader.
Your job is to lead. Not feed the trolls. It is completely irrelevant at this
point what you have to say in this. The big problem is that you keep feeding
the censorship trolls. Your so called advocacy amounts to no more nor less
then fanning the flames that keep the censorship trolls trolling. Your BWG -
you know what your doing - you should known better - isto
pensitaris.<BR><BR>You have also libeled and slander Jeff Williams, Hugh
Dierker, Karl Peter and myself. I dismiss it as party games and i'm sure Hugh
and Jeff can look after themselves. But to liable and slander Karl Peters?
Thats very impolitic of you. Nes pas? Karl Peters sees you as a patron saint
of the TLDA? According to them - thats Bradley Thornton, Gene Marsh, and
Richard Sexton you promised them support to the TLDA if needed. I detect some
non disclosed conflict of interest in this libel and slander.<BR><BR>But you
don't know Karl. I can call Karl a fool - I know him well - but you can't.
Karl is not your intellectual equal nor superior by any stretch of the
imagination. I don't think there is any question of that. He is very much your
inferior. By pointing him out like you did in your capacity as an intellectual
elitist amounts to playing the bully. Thats not nice. The eltist intellectual
has caused an inferior pain. There is blood on your hands.<BR><BR>You supposed
to be helping Karl run the TLDA and fulfilling your promises. Not libeling and
slandering on of it's officers and directors. Maybe your forgetful en mendacem
memorem esse oporte.<BR><BR>Your contributions just amount to troll feeding
and the eletist intelectual bullying of an unfortunate like Karl. How is Karl
ever to get a job if someone references that with your
position.<BR> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV lang=EN-US vlink="blue" link="blue">
<DIV>
<P><FONT color=navy size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Trying reading more
carefully next time.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR>All I have to say to you and your conduct is da mihi sis bubulae
frustrum assae, solana tuberosa in modo gallico fricta, ac quassum lactatum
coagulatum crassum. That is tha appropriate position to take with
you.<BR><BR>kindest regards<BR>joe baptista<BR><BR> <BR></DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV lang=EN-US vlink="blue" link="blue">
<DIV>
<P><FONT color=navy size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">--MM</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT color=navy size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: 1.5pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in">
<DIV>
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT size=3
face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR align=center SIZE=2 width="100%">
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P><B><FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="http://publicroot.info" target=_blank>publicroot.info</A>@<A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="http://gmail.com" target=_blank>gmail.com</A> [mailto:<A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:publicroot.info@gmail.com"
target=_blank>publicroot.info@gmail.com</A>] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Joe Baptista<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Friday, August 14, 2009 8:41
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> <A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org"
target=_blank>governance@lists.cpsr.org</A>; Milton L Mueller<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</SPAN></B> Rui Correia
<DIV><SPAN id=q_1231ef3364e16459_1 class=e><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [governance] Trying to
"fix" the list</SPAN></DIV></SPAN></FONT>
<P></P></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN id=q_1231ef3364e16459_3 class=e>
<P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<DIV>
<P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">On Fri,
Aug 14, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Milton L Mueller <<A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:mueller@syr.edu" target=_blank>mueller@syr.edu</A>>
wrote:</SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV vlink="purple" link="blue">
<DIV>
<P><FONT color=navy size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Rui makes a
reasonable suggestion but I do not support posting limits because the real
problem is not the number of posts per person but the quality and pertinence
of the posts. e.g., </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Censorship. That's the elitist intellectual in you
advocating censorship. Should you not instead be focusing your time on your
inclusive GNSO project? Instead of advocating censorship?
Milton.<BR> </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: 1pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 6pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 4.8pt; BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in">
<DIV vlink="purple" link="blue">
<DIV>
<P><FONT color=navy size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">if Parminder and
Bill Drake are really going at it, I wouldn’t mind seeing 10 each from
both of them in one day. Any reasonable posting limit – say, 5 per day –
would still allow people who have nothing to say but plenty of time, to
waste our time and generate reactions from others.
</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>
<P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">More
elitist intellectual censorship moralist mongering. Milton - you are here to
lead - not feed the censorship trolls this nonsense.<BR><BR>Now how is your
little project going.? Where do I join?<BR><BR>regards<BR>joe
baptista<BR> </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: 1pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 6pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 4.8pt; BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in">
<DIV vlink="purple" link="blue">
<DIV>
<P><FONT color=navy size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: 1.5pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in">
<DIV>
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT size=3
face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR align=center SIZE=2 width="100%">
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P><B><FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Rui
Correia [mailto:<A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:correia.rui@gmail.com"
target=_blank>correia.rui@gmail.com</A>] <BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Friday, August 14, 2009 5:49
AM</SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P><FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> <A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org"
target=_blank>governance@lists.cpsr.org</A>; Jeanette Hofmann<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [governance] Trying to
"fix" the list</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Dear All</SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR><BR>I am on a list on which they imposed a
quota of daily posting by members - that will at least address the issue
of having some members commenting on every single posting that others
submit on a given issue. Anyone exceeding the quota gets a warning and
after that suspension for x amount of time. <BR><BR>Obviously there should
be exceptions for list admin/ event up-date announcements etc by list
administrators.<BR><BR>And implement something like this is no more
censorship than setting a time limit during question time/ not allowing
same person to make more than one question during question time/ not
accepting submission of more than x hundred words. Time is valuable, we
are all very busy and so it is only fair that we allow as many people a
voice in as short time as possible, taking into account that we have to
set aside time to read others' contributions.<BR><BR>And unless we are
voting, could we perhaps cut down on "yes, I agree"/ "good point, Joe
Soap" - unless Joe Soap's point actually makes you change your mind, in
which case you might want to retract/ amend your earlier position making
it clear that that is what you are doing. <BR><BR>Best
regards,<BR><BR>Rui<BR><BR><BR> </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">2009/8/14 Jeanette Hofmann
<jeanette@wzb.eu></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Hi
all,<BR><BR>I think it is a mistake to conflate the issue of discourse
pollution with the issue of decision making capacity.<BR><BR><BR>The
strength of this list relies on its openness, which facilitates
contributions from IG participants and observers regardless of their
membership status. If we moved advocacy related discussions to more
specific lists, the general discussion list would most likely become
irrelevant within a few months. So, like Avri, I am very much against
creating or moving the discussion to new lists as a means of dealing with
abuse.<BR><BR>The creation of troll filters is a good interim solution but
not sufficient to protect the open space of this list. For example,
filters don't prevent ad hominem attacks.<BR><BR>After having skimmed
through the "unsubscribe" discussion of the last 10 days, I get the
feeling that the lack of decision making capacity, which is so typical for
this list, applies also to the issue of trolls.<BR><BR>My suggestion would
be to ask the coordinators to come up with a few options for
action.<BR>One option, supported by Ginger and Parminder, is to move this
discussion elsewhere.<BR>Another option would be to adjust our charter by
adding a section on abuse.<BR><BR>The following para of our charter, for
example, could be expanded a bit to take into account other forms of of
discourse pollution:<BR><BR>"Some of the specific guidelines that will be
enforced include those relating to:<BR>*No personal insults<BR>*No
spam"<BR><BR>The members of this list would have to agree on a general
definition of abuse and appropriate means of action against
it.<BR><BR><BR>There might be other options. In any case, I would like to
ask out coordinators to apply some form of leadership to overcome the
present impasse and help restoring this discussion space.<BR><FONT
color=#888888><SPAN
style="COLOR: rgb(136,136,136)"><BR>jeanette</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR><BR>
</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR>Rui Correia<BR>Advocacy, Human Rights, Media
and Language Consultant<BR>2 Cutten St<BR>Horison
<BR>Roodepoort-Johannesburg, <BR>South Africa<BR>Tel/ Fax (+27-11)
766-4336<BR>Mobile (+27) (0)
84-498-6838<BR>_______________<BR>áâãçéêíóôõúç</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR>____________________________________________________________<BR>You
received this message as a subscriber on the list:<BR> <A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org"
target=_blank>governance@lists.cpsr.org</A><BR>To be removed from the
list, send any message to:<BR> <A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:governance-unsubscribe@lists.cpsr.org"
target=_blank>governance-unsubscribe@lists.cpsr.org</A><BR><BR>For all
list information and functions, see:<BR> <A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance"
target=_blank>http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance</A></SPAN></FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR><BR
clear=all><BR>-- <BR>Joe Baptista<BR><BR><A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="http://www.publicroot.org"
target=_blank>www.publicroot.org</A><BR>PublicRoot
Consortium<BR>----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>The
future of the Internet is Open, Transparent, Inclusive, Representative &
Accountable to the Internet community
@large.<BR>----------------------------------------------------------------<BR> Office:
+1 (360) 526-6077 (extension 052)<BR> Fax: +1 (509)
479-0084<BR><BR>Personal: <A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="http://www.joebaptista.wordpress.com"
target=_blank>www.joebaptista.wordpress.com</A></SPAN></FONT></P></SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR
clear=all><BR>-- <BR>Joe Baptista<BR><BR><A
href="http://www.publicroot.org">www.publicroot.org</A><BR>PublicRoot
Consortium<BR>----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>The
future of the Internet is Open, Transparent, Inclusive, Representative &
Accountable to the Internet community
@large.<BR>----------------------------------------------------------------<BR> Office:
+1 (360) 526-6077 (extension 052)<BR> Fax: +1 (509)
479-0084<BR><BR>Personal: <A
href="http://www.joebaptista.wordpress.com">www.joebaptista.wordpress.com</A>
</BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>