<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">MM,<div><br><div><div>On Jun 8, 2009, at 9:45 PM, Milton L Mueller wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"> <div style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; webkit-nbsp-mode: space; webkit-line-break: after-white-space"> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="291314319-08062009"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">Bill, </font></span></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="291314319-08062009"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">the disconnect is that NN is not "part of" NGN; on the contrary NGN is a trend that runs counter to it. Your phrasing was confusing.</font></span></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Sorry, I meant the issue of NN (preserving it) arises in the context of the NGN transition, not that NN is a favored approach of carriers pushing the transition, which is obviously not the case. </div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; webkit-nbsp-mode: space; webkit-line-break: after-white-space"><div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="291314319-08062009"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"> </font></span></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="291314319-08062009"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">There's no resistance here to "assessing the potential impacts of trends in the telecom industry..." on the contrary, this is why we proposed and offered to organize an NN panel and why IGP introduced NN into the global IG debate two years ago. So please, climb down from that hobby horse.</font></span></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Uh, you kinda urged me to climb aboard with the 'Geneva-centric' bit, shades of debates past. So ok, now that we're done talking past each other, do we agree it'd be useful to contextualize NN a bit more?</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div><br></div><div>Bill</div><div><br></div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; webkit-nbsp-mode: space; webkit-line-break: after-white-space"><div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="291314319-08062009"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"> </font></span></div><!-- Converted from text/plain format --><p><font size="2">Milton Mueller<br>Professor, Syracuse University School of Information Studies<br>XS4All Professor, Delft University of Technology<br>------------------------------<br>Internet Governance Project:<br><a href="http://internetgovernance.org/">http://internetgovernance.org</a><br></font></p> <div> </div><br> <blockquote dir="ltr" style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <div class="OutlookMessageHeader" lang="en-us" dir="ltr" align="left"> <hr tabindex="-1"> <font face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b> William Drake [<a href="mailto:william.drake@graduateinstitute.ch">mailto:william.drake@graduateinstitute.ch</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 08, 2009 3:42 AM<br><b>To:</b> Milton L Mueller<br><b>Cc:</b> Governance List<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [governance] IGC workshops<br></font><br></div> <div></div>Hi Milton, <div><br></div> <div>Not sure what the disconnect is here. NGN is a term used in industry and policy circles world wide to characterize the shift underway from PSTNs to IP-based convergent nets with new architectures and service provisioning models. An important part of those new models, if the carriers get their way, is to abandon NN, ergo my characterization of the issues as part and parcel of the NGN shift. Some observers say that NGNs could provide the technical means to monitor and manage traffic in such a manner that all applications are treated on a nondiscriminatory basis, but that doesn't appear the to be preference of the carriers making the investments. And they're getting their way in various places; governments like the UK's have specifically rejected NN as a barrier to NGN development. So I was simply suggesting we might want to consider NN in the context of the larger transformation underway.</div> <div><br></div> <div>I've moaned here on and off for years about the apparent aversion to assessing the potential impacts of trends in the telecom industry, including its global governance, on the Internet and IG. It really puzzles me that we would treat a katrillion dollar industry that controls much of the underlying infrastructure as somehow irrelevant, particularly after all the (semi-coherent) discussions of international interconnection charging and such in WSIS and beyond. The singular obsession with ICANN---not so much what ICANN actually does, the issues it addresses, but rather what it is or represents institutionally---seems to blot out interest in other issues and leaves the ministries and industry to merrily go there way without any public interest advocacy as a countervailing force beyond purely national discussions. Since we can't or don't participate in most of the international spaces where this stuff goes on, why would we not want to use the opportunities provided by the IGF to explore these dynamics, especially when they're directly relevant to the focus of the workshop?</div> <div><br></div> <div>Whatever...dead horse duly beaten, back to our regular programming...</div> <div><br></div> <div>Cheers,</div> <div><br></div> <div>Bill</div> <div><br></div> <div><br></div> <div><br> <div> <div>On Jun 8, 2009, at 6:04 AM, Milton L Mueller wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"> <blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: 26px Arial; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; orphans: 2; widows: 2; webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; webkit-text-stroke-width: 0"> <div lang="EN-US" style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; webkit-nbsp-mode: space; webkit-line-break: after-white-space" vlink="purple" link="blue"><o:smarttagtype name="country-region" namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"><o:smarttagtype name="City" namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"><o:smarttagtype name="place" namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"><o:smarttagtype name="PersonName" namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"> <div class="Section1"> <div style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><font face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">No, I just misunderstood your statement that Net Neutrality is “part and parcel” of the NGN trajectory. What you apparently mean is that phone companies may be using NGN to _avoid_ being neutral, which may be true, and is certainly important if it is. I still don’t know what you meant by “…of which it is part and parcel.”<o:p></o:p></span></font></div> <div style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><font face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p></o:p></span></font></div> <div style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: blue 1.5pt solid; BORDER-TOP-STYLE: none; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-RIGHT-STYLE: none; BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE: none"> <div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; TEXT-ALIGN: center" align="center"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <hr tabindex="-1" align="center" width="100%" size="2"> </span></font></div> <div style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</span></font></b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><st1:personname w:st="on">William Drake</st1:personname><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[<a style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline" href="mailto:william.drake@graduateinstitute.ch">mailto:william.drake@graduateinstitute.ch</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Sunday, June 07, 2009 12:38 PM<br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><st1:personname w:st="on">Milton L Mueller</st1:personname><br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Governance List<br><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [governance] IGC workshops</span></font><o:p></o:p></div></div> <div style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p></o:p></span></font></div> <div style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Hi Milton,<o:p></o:p></span></font></div> <div> <div style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p></o:p></span></font></div> <div> <div> <div style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">On Jun 7, 2009, at 4:49 PM,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><st1:personname w:st="on">Milton L Mueller</st1:personname><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div> <div style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><br><br><o:p></o:p></span></font></div><span style="WORD-SPACING: 0px; orphans: 2; widows: 2; webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><u1:p> <div style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; webkit-nbsp-mode: space; webkit-line-break: after-white-space" vlink="purple" link="blue"> <div> <div style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-TOP-STYLE: none; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-RIGHT-STYLE: none; BORDER-LEFT-STYLE: solid; BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE: none"> <div> <div> <div> <div style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><font face="Times New Roman" color="black" size="3"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div></div> <div> <div> <div style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><font face="Times New Roman" color="black" size="3"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">I agree. We might want to consider widening the lens an little and placing NN in the context of the whole NGN trajectory, of which it is part and parcel.<o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div><u1:p></u1:p> <div> <div style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><font face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><u1:p></u1:p></span></font><font color="black"><span style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div> <div> <div style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><font face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">It is???? I hope not. That’s a peculiarly Geneva-centric view of NN<u1:p></u1:p></span></font><font color="black"><span style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div> <div> <div style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><font face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><u1:p></u1:p></span></font><font color="black"><span style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></u1:p></span></div> <div style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p></o:p></span></font></div><span style="WORD-SPACING: 0px; orphans: 2; widows: 2; webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><span style="WORD-SPACING: 0px; orphans: 2; widows: 2; webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><span style="WORD-SPACING: 0px; orphans: 2; widows: 2; webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><span style="WORD-SPACING: 0px; orphans: 2; widows: 2; webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"> <div apple-content-edited="true"> <div style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; webkit-nbsp-mode: space; webkit-line-break: after-white-space"> <div style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; webkit-nbsp-mode: space; webkit-line-break: after-white-space"> <div> <div style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; webkit-nbsp-mode: space; webkit-line-break: after-white-space"> <div> <div style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; webkit-nbsp-mode: space; webkit-line-break: after-white-space"> <div> <div> <div style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><font face="Arial" color="black" size="4"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Are you saying that carriers around the world are not in fact making the investments and pursuing the strategies they say they are---replacing PSTNs with IP core and access nets, trying to move to QOS and differentiation, etc? Or that because they adopt the standards and coordinate on the policies in<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><st1:city w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Geneva</st1:place></st1:city>, it doesn't matter that they are doing these things? Or that because in<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><st1:city w:st="on">Geneva</st1:city> they use terminology they may not use as much in the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">US</st1:place></st1:country-region>, it doesn't matter that they are doing these things? Or that taking note of the global trends is suspect if one is based in<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><st1:city w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Geneva</st1:place></st1:city>? Or...? Perhaps a peculiarly US-centric view of NN at work here...:-)<o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div> <div> <div style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><font face="Arial" color="black" size="4"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div> <div> <div style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><font face="Arial" color="black" size="4"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">But forget the term, forget the ITU. The question is, in the IGF context, would it be optimal to continue talking about NN as a stand-alone issue, or might it be useful to view it as part of a larger set of dynamics in the telecom industry that could affect the net going forward?<o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div> <div> <div style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><font face="Arial" color="black" size="4"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div> <div> <div style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><font face="Arial" color="black" size="4"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div> <div> <div style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><font face="Arial" color="black" size="4"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div> <div> <div style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><font face="Arial" color="black" size="4"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Bill<o:p></o:p></span></font></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></span></span></span></span></div></div></div></o:smarttagtype></o:smarttagtype></o:smarttagtype></o:smarttagtype></div></span></blockquote></div><br> <div apple-content-edited="true"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: 18px Arial; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; orphans: 2; widows: 2; webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; webkit-text-stroke-width: 0"> <div style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; webkit-nbsp-mode: space; webkit-line-break: after-white-space"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: 18px Arial; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; orphans: 2; widows: 2; webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"> <div style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; webkit-nbsp-mode: space; webkit-line-break: after-white-space"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: 18px Arial; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; orphans: 2; widows: 2; webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: 18px Arial; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; orphans: 2; widows: 2; webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"> <div> <div style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; webkit-nbsp-mode: space; webkit-line-break: after-white-space"> <div> <div style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; webkit-nbsp-mode: space; webkit-line-break: after-white-space"> <div> <div style="MARGIN: 0px">***********************************************************</div> <div style="MARGIN: 0px">William J. Drake </div> <div style="MARGIN: 0px">Senior Associate</div> <div style="MARGIN: 0px">Centre for International Governance</div> <div style="MARGIN: 0px">Graduate Institute of International and</div> <div style="MARGIN: 0px"> Development Studies</div> <div style="MARGIN: 0px">Geneva, Switzerland</div> <div style="MARGIN: 0px"><a href="mailto:william.drake@graduateinstitute.ch">william.drake@graduateinstitute.ch</a></div> <div style="MARGIN: 0px"> <div style="MARGIN: 0px"><a href="http://www.graduateinstitute.ch/cig/drake.html">www.graduateinstitute.ch/cig/drake.html</a></div></div> <div style="MARGIN: 0px">***********************************************************</div></div></div></div></div></div></span></span></div></span></div></span></div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>