<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Hi Bertrand,<div><br></div><div>I have a slightly different view. I've always thought the "respective roles" bit is the single worst part of the definition, one that confuses much more than it clarifies. We put this in the WGIG report at the insistence of a couple of developing country reps who wanted to establish that policy is for governments full stop, and when we spent an afternoon trying to specify what those respective roles really were, the discussion quickly revealed abundant ambiguities and overlaps. Many of the functions listed for each actor is or should be shared across them, so the whole effort ultimately seemed like a just a political sop to folks who had a rather restrictive vision of the relationship between state and society. Hence, from the standpoint of promoting multistakeholderism et al, I can't help wondering whether re-fetishizing these artificial categories and trying to specify how they apply in different issue spaces, stages etc would really be such a constructive activity...?</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Bill</div><div><br><div><div>On Mar 24, 2009, at 10:18 AM, Bertrand de La Chapelle wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">Dear all,<br><br>Interesting exchange. And a good progressive refinement on the topic. This is clearly something of interest for all stakeholders. <br><br>Such a workshop clearly would build upon the now famous IG definition of art. 34 of the TAIS:<br> <br><div style="margin-left: 40px;"><font size="2" face="Verdana"><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-weight: 400;">A working definition of Internet governance is the development and application by governments, the private sector and civil society, <b>in their respective roles</b>, of shared principles, norms, rules, decision-making procedures, and programmes that shape the evolution and use of the Internet.</span></font></font><br><font size="2" face="Verdana"><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-weight: 400;"></span></font></font></div><font size="2" face="Verdana"><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-weight: 400;"><br> <span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;">There is considerable discussion about what the "respective roles" are and Article 35 is not completely satisfactory in that respect. <br><br>I have always argued that the "respective roles" of the different stakeholders can (and should) vary according to : the issue, the venue where it is discussed and the stage of the discussion. Such a workshop would probably benefit from exploring in some detail those various dimensions, to move beyond the classic oppositions on abstract principles into more operational territory.<br> <br>In particular, there is a sort of symmetry between the ICANN space where governments want more say and more traditional IGOs where CS and business want more say. This is all about "embodiment of the WSIS principles in Internet Governance processes".<br> <br>An important element is to define what is the expected outcome of the workshop and in which of the categories identified in the MAG discussions it fits : probably the one where actors know the different elements of the debate but simply do not agree ... yet. Hence the format could be more an open discussion than a panel of experts. But a key factor of success will be to make sure that all the different viewpoints are represented in the room. <br> <br>A way to do this would probably be to outreach ahead of time to a range of key stakeholders to promote the workshop and make sure that they will attend. <br><br>Important thread. <br><br>Best<br><br>Bertrand <br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> </span><br style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><br></span></font></font><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 9:50 AM, Parminder <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>></span> wrote:<br> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> <div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000"><div class="im"> >Role of Governments in IG is an interesting topic and needs to be discussed. But in the context of multi-stakeholderism, why would the Caucus single out >Government and propose a theme "Role of Governments in IG" ?<br> </div><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><br> I agree, the workshop should be on a title something like <br> <br> "Global IG - the role of the governments, civil society and the private sector'. <br> <br> Just interrogating the role of governments is either reducing IG to CIR management, or, if we are speaking of all aspects of IG, it is a bit presumptuous, in the sense that governments obviously see themselves in 'the' central role. We may want to challenge that, especially at the global level, but best to do with a workshop with the above kind of a title, that looking at the 'role of government in IG' which seem, at least to me, to suggest that it was something of a new and developing concept. <br><font color="#888888"> <br> Parminder <br> </font></font><div><div></div><div class="h5"><br> Sivasubramanian Muthusamy wrote: <blockquote type="cite">Hello Ian<br> <br> Role of Governments in IG is an interesting topic and needs to be discussed. But in the context of multi-stakeholderism, why would the Caucus single out Government and propose a theme "Role of Governments in IG" ?<br> <br> This moves the role of Governments center stage with the roles of other stakeholder groups undiscussed. <br> <br> It would be more appropriate if the workshop is about the Role of various stakeholder groups, as a part of which, the role of Governments is debated.<br> <br clear="all"> Sivasubramanian Muthusamy<br> <a href="http://isocmadras.blogspot.com" target="_blank">http://isocmadras.blogspot.com</a><br> <br> <br> <div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 12:52 AM, Ian Peter <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ian.peter@ianpeter.com" target="_blank">ian.peter@ianpeter.com</a>></span> wrote:<br> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> <div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US"> <div dir="rtl"><p dir="ltr"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">I also agree this is a good proposal. There are three dimensions –</span></font></p><div><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> </span></font><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div> <ol style="margin-top: 0cm;" start="1" type="1"> <li dir="ltr" style="color: navy;"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">appropriate regulation/governmental involvement at a national level</span></font></li> <li dir="ltr" style="color: navy;"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">international co-operation of governments</span></font></li> <li dir="ltr" style="color: navy;"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">governmental involvement in global multistakeholder structures</span></font></li> </ol><div><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> </span></font><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p dir="ltr"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">On the former – I know how this is organized at a national level differs vastly from country to country. Has anyone done a detailed study on this we could suggest for a panel?</span></font></p><div><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> </span></font><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p dir="ltr"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">Similarly on the latter two – what are the current areas of international co-operation across various organizations? Has anyone a good study on this?</span></font></p><div><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> </span></font><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p dir="ltr"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">A couple of good introductory studies would be the key to a successful workshop here.</span></font></p><div><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> </span></font><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> </span></font><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> </span></font><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> </span></font><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> </span></font><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> </span></font><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div> <div><p dir="ltr"><font size="3" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: navy;">Ian Peter</span></font></p><p dir="ltr"><font size="3" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: navy;">PO Box</span></font><font color="navy"><span style="color: navy;"> 429</span></font><font color="navy"><span style="color: navy;"></span></font></p><p dir="ltr"><font size="3" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: navy;">Bangalow NSW 2479</span></font></p><p dir="ltr"><font size="3" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: navy;">Australia</span></font><font color="navy"><span style="color: navy;"></span></font></p><p dir="ltr"><font size="3" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: navy;">Tel (+614) 1966 7772 or (+612) 6687 0773</span></font></p><p dir="ltr"><font size="3" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: navy;"><a href="http://www.ianpeter.com" target="_blank">www.ianpeter.com</a></span></font></p><div><font size="3" color="navy" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: navy;"> </span></font><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div> </div><div><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> </span></font><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div> <div style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color blue; border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt;"> <div> <div dir="ltr" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> <hr size="2" width="100%" align="center"></span></font></div><p dir="ltr"><b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;"> Ginger Paque [mailto:<a href="mailto:gpaque@gmail.com" target="_blank">gpaque@gmail.com</a>] <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> 23 March 2009 05:19<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> [governance] Workshop on the role of Government in IG</span></font></p> </div> <div> <div><div><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p dir="ltr"><font size="2" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Please post your interest and ideas for a workshop on the role of government in IG on this thread.</span></font></p><p dir="ltr"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Milton L Mueller</span></font> <<a href="mailto:mueller@syr.edu" target="_blank">mueller@syr.edu</a><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"></span></font></p><p dir="ltr"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">I think a WS on the role of Government in IG is useful for the IGF, and for civil society to be the initiators. I see echoes of this theme in current discussions of G7-G20, discussions of ICANN-GAC, discussions of different actions of national governments, forum shopping, etc. </span></font></p><p dir="ltr"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Ralf Bendrath</span></font> <<a href="mailto:bendrath@zedat.fu-berlin.de" target="_blank">bendrath@zedat.fu-berlin.de</a><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"></span></font></p><p dir="ltr"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">This would spark an interesting discussion, indeed. But please do not<br> equate "Internet Governance" with "ICANN" and only talk about the MAG and<br> the JPA. ;-)</span></font></p><div><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></font><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><font size="2" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></font><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p dir="ltr"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">Ginger</span></font></p><div><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"></span></font><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p dir="ltr"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">Ms. Virginia (Ginger) Paque</span></font></p><p dir="ltr"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">DiploFoundation</span></font></p><p dir="ltr"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">Coordinator IGCBP 09</span></font></p><div><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"></span></font><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p dir="ltr"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"><a href="http://www.diplomacy.edu/ig" target="_blank">www.diplomacy.edu/ig</a></span></font></p><p dir="ltr"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"><a href="mailto:VirginiaP@diplomacy.edu" target="_blank">VirginiaP@diplomacy.edu</a></span></font><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"></span></font></p><div><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> <br> ____________________________________________________________<br> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a><br> To be removed from the list, send any message to:<br> <a href="mailto:governance-unsubscribe@lists.cpsr.org" target="_blank">governance-unsubscribe@lists.cpsr.org</a><br> <br> For all list information and functions, see:<br> <a href="http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance" target="_blank">http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance</a><br> <br> </blockquote> </div> <br> </blockquote> </div></div></div> <br>____________________________________________________________<br> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a><br> To be removed from the list, send any message to:<br> <a href="mailto:governance-unsubscribe@lists.cpsr.org">governance-unsubscribe@lists.cpsr.org</a><br> <br> For all list information and functions, see:<br> <a href="http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance" target="_blank">http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance</a><br> <br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>____________________<br>Bertrand de La Chapelle<br>Délégué Spécial pour la Société de l'Information / Special Envoy for the Information Society<br>Ministère des Affaires Etrangères et Européennes/ French Ministry of Foreign and European Affairs<br> Tel : +33 (0)6 11 88 33 32<br><br>"Le plus beau métier des hommes, c'est d'unir les hommes" Antoine de Saint Exupéry<br>("there is no greater mission for humans than uniting humans")<br> ____________________________________________________________<br>You received this message as a subscriber on the list:<br> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a><br>To be removed from the list, send any message to:<br> <a href="mailto:governance-unsubscribe@lists.cpsr.org">governance-unsubscribe@lists.cpsr.org</a><br><br>For all list information and functions, see:<br> <a href="http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance">http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance</a><br></blockquote></div><br><div apple-content-edited="true"> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Arial; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Arial; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Arial; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">***********************************************************</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">William J. Drake </div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Senior Associate</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Centre for International Governance</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Graduate Institute of International and</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "> Development Studies</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Geneva, Switzerland</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><a href="mailto:william.drake@graduateinstitute.ch">william.drake@graduateinstitute.ch</a></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">New book: <i>Governing Global Electronic Networks,</i></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><a href="http://tinyurl.com/5mh9jj">http://tinyurl.com/5mh9jj</a></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">***********************************************************</div></div></div></div></div></div></span></span></div></span> </div><br></div></body></html>