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<P><FONT SIZE=2>Hi,<BR>
<BR>
I also agree/hope we can get to a short, succinct, and internationally 'acceptable' set of standards or recommendations.<BR>
<BR>
Starting perhaps with:<BR>
1)"not discarding messages without informing the user,"<BR>
2) "not diverting content to others (such as the police)without a legally obtained warrant or equivalent." and<BR>
3) "ISPs being obliged/expected to disclose what (their) delivery policies are." <BR>
<BR>
With regard to 3), from a service contract perspective, this would be embedded in a 'Consumer Service Level Agreement' between ISP & user. Maximum KBPS or MBPS are typically touted today, but not much info is available to users on 1) 2) and 3). Bill Lehr and I called for consumer sla's back in '02 in an article, but got no traction at the time. This feels like we are off to a more auspicious start at describing what a personal SLA should cover.<BR>
<BR>
Meaning both user and provider consent and consensus would be expected.<BR>
<BR>
I also agree a label or icon affixed by ISPs pledging to their customers to abide by whatever short list we come up with, could be useful.<BR>
<BR>
Lee<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
-----Original Message-----<BR>
From: George Sadowsky [<A HREF="mailto:george.sadowsky@attglobal.net">mailto:george.sadowsky@attglobal.net</A>]<BR>
Sent: Sun 1/11/2009 10:47 AM<BR>
To: governance@lists.cpsr.org; Parminder; Michael Gurstein<BR>
Cc: 'McTim'; 'Steve Anderson'; Milton L Mueller; 'Brian Beaton'; isolatedn@gmail.com<BR>
Subject: Re: [governance] What is Network Neutrality<BR>
<BR>
All,<BR>
<BR>
Well, this is a discussion that seems to be going somewhere, and<BR>
without a lot of verbosity. That's good.<BR>
<BR>
Parminder has grasped what Carlos and I were saying. But I am<BR>
hesitant about taking the net step forward in detail, because<BR>
"appropriate" depends upon cultural context.<BR>
<BR>
I would agree that there are gross (in the sense of large) standards<BR>
of appropriateness, such as not discarding messages without informing<BR>
the user, not diverting content to others (such as the police)<BR>
without a legally obtained warrant or equivalent. Wen you get to the<BR>
details, however, they will vary country by country, as well as<BR>
opinion by opinion.<BR>
<BR>
I do see Parminder's suggestion as helpful in beginning to formulate<BR>
such a list, but I would not want to see a lot of effort go on around<BR>
the "edges" of such a list, with increasing arguments about what<BR>
should go on and what should not go on a list.<BR>
<BR>
One of the advantages of having ISPs lay out precisely what their<BR>
delivery policies are (my suggestion) and understanding what the user<BR>
can do about it, i.e. what degrees of freedom users have (Carlos'<BR>
suggestion) is that at least on multiple provider neighborhoods there<BR>
exists the possibility of competition in the delivery space. If one<BR>
ISP has a less desirable delivery policy than another, at least it<BR>
will be clear to the users what the situation is, and they can select<BR>
their provider accordingly.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, note that it is possible to have this entire discussion without<BR>
ever mentioning the words "net neutrality." Given the different<BR>
definitions and occasional quasi-religious arguments using the term,<BR>
I think that's a good thing.<BR>
<BR>
Regards,<BR>
<BR>
George<BR>
<BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
At 9:51 AM +0530 1/11/09, Parminder wrote:<BR>
>Michael<BR>
><BR>
>>approach suggested by George and Carlos which shifts the<BR>
>>discussion away from semantic/technical issues of the definition of NN and<BR>
>>towards the underlying (overarching) questions of the possible significance<BR>
>>of NN from a user/civil society perspective.<BR>
>Carlos's and George's formulations are important parts of network<BR>
>neutrality (NN). George wants, in his words,<BR>
>"a clear statement by an ISP of what the ISP does with respect to<BR>
>traffic manipulation (if anything), and I would think that a<BR>
>reasonable goal should be to establish a framework that<BR>
>allows/requires an ISP to declare, in simple language or languages,<BR>
>its policies with respect to content manipulation and delivery. "<BR>
><BR>
>If I paraphrase it right, Carlos further calls for some clarity, and<BR>
>specific provisions, about what a user can do - in terms of remedies<BR>
>open to her - if she finds that traffic is being inappropriately<BR>
>manipulated.<BR>
><BR>
>Both the above need to be ensured. Thas very important. But IMHO<BR>
>they come after some kind of clarity and acceptance about what<BR>
>constitutes inappropriate traffic violation, (or conversely, NN).<BR>
>Otherwise, what if an ISP declares a policy of two to three kinds of<BR>
>transmission service as per different payment slabs, and then<BR>
>adheres to it sincerely, and also announces means of redress if<BR>
>found violating. I dont see this as fulfilling the requirement of NN.<BR>
><BR>
>A statement of self-defined principles can go a long way in<BR>
>addressing ad hoc discriminatory practices, which can, or are<BR>
>likely, to be considered patently and obviously wrong. Such<BR>
>statements can also be tested in the courts against normal<BR>
>competition and anti-trust laws. However, transparent declaration of<BR>
>self-defined policy, and possible means of redressal, while being<BR>
>important, by themselves do not fill in for the need to have some<BR>
>clear public interest principles and regulations defining and<BR>
>enforcing NN. I dont think discussing such principles takes the<BR>
>discussion to avoidable semantics area, away from a user perspective.<BR>
><BR>
>To quote again from Obama's technology doc<BR>
><BR>
>"Users must be free to access content, to use applications, and to<BR>
>attach personal devices. They have a right to receive accurate and<BR>
>honest information about service plans. But these guarantees are not<BR>
>enough to prevent network providers from discriminating in ways that<BR>
>limit the freedom of expression on the Internet...... " (full quote<BR>
>in my previous email)<BR>
><BR>
>Parminder<BR>
><BR>
>Michael Gurstein wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>I haven't been following this discussion as closely as I could have (being<BR>
>>pre-occupied with more immediate issues) but I must say that I see much<BR>
>>value in the approach suggested by George and Carlos which shifts the<BR>
>>discussion away from semantic/technical issues of the definition of NN and<BR>
>>towards the underlying (overarching) questions of the possible significance<BR>
>>of NN from a user/civil society perspective.<BR>
>><BR>
>>It seems to me that approaching NN from the perspective of technical<BR>
>>definition is likely to be something of a waste of time (over the longer<BR>
>>term) since what NN will mean (and how it can be managed/or not) will depend<BR>
>>on transient technical capacities and designs.<BR>
>><BR>
>>The underlying/overarching issues/principles of Internet<BR>
>>governance/management (or not) is surely what needs to be addressed and in<BR>
>>that I'm wondering whether an approach based on notions of the Internet as a<BR>
>>"public trust" might not be the direction to look. Identifying/prescribing<BR>
>>something as a "public trust" has a long history dating back for example to<BR>
>>the legalization of notions of a public commons where there is a need to<BR>
>>develop a legal framework to govern on-going processes of decision making in<BR>
>>araes where there is an overarching public interest but where there are also<BR>
>>on-going elements of private interest, government involvement and so on and<BR>
>>so on.<BR>
>><BR>
>>The Law of the Sea is one such area globally but many individual countries<BR>
>>have legilsation for managing of areas where the public interest requires a<BR>
>>management framework to determine an appropriate balance between competing<BR>
>>local private, group and public interests.<BR>
>><BR>
>>If anything in our time can be identified as a global "public trust" surely<BR>
>>it is the Internet and developing strategies for managing and governing of<BR>
>>this would provide a framework within which the transient issues and<BR>
>>competitive interests underlying NN among others could be worked out in some<BR>
>>kind of way supportive of the overall public interest.<BR>
>><BR>
>>MBG<BR>
>><BR>
>>-----Original Message-----<BR>
>>From: George Sadowsky<BR>
>>[<<A HREF="mailto:george.sadowsky@attglobal.net">mailto:george.sadowsky@attglobal.net</A>><A HREF="mailto:george.sadowsky@attglobal.net">mailto:george.sadowsky@attglobal.net</A>]<BR>
>>Sent: January-08-09 5:02 PM<BR>
>>To: <<A HREF="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org">mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org</A>>governance@lists.cpsr.org;<BR>
>>Carlos Afonso; Parminder<BR>
>>Cc: McTim; Steve Anderson; Milton L Mueller; Michael Gurstein; Brian Beaton;<BR>
>><<A HREF="mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com">mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com</A>>isolatedn@gmail.com<BR>
>>Subject: Re: [governance] What is Network Neutrality<BR>
>><BR>
>><BR>
>>All,<BR>
>><BR>
>>I like very much Carlos' suggested approach of focusing on net<BR>
>>neutrality. In addition to addressing edge-content manipulation by<BR>
>>ISPs for whatever reason, it addresses the issue where (1) XXX is a<BR>
>>government, and packets in one or both directions may just end up in<BR>
>>the gulag (and sometimes with their senders and recipients, too!);<BR>
>>and (2) the potentially more beneficial case where SIPs are trying to<BR>
>>do spam control or other damage control of some kind. Note that this<BR>
>>would also diversion of traffic to alternate recipients, or simply<BR>
>>inspection of traffic in transit (e.g. the Great Chinese Firewall)<BR>
>><BR>
>>There are, of course, different definitions of net neutrality, and<BR>
>>there are some thoughtful and challenging papers that address the<BR>
>>subject. It's probably worth at least establishing and contrasting<BR>
>>definitions, but more important, understanding what they imply for<BR>
>>users in areas such as privacy, confidentiality, and accuracy. I<BR>
>>agree with Carlos in that much of what I've seen does not concentrate<BR>
>>upon implications for the user.<BR>
>><BR>
>>I have never seen from an ISP a clear statement by an ISP of what the<BR>
>>ISP does with respect to traffic manipulation (if anything), and I<BR>
>>would think that a reasonable goal should be to establish a framework<BR>
>>that allows/requires an ISP to declare, in simple language or<BR>
>>languages, its policies with respect to content manipulation and<BR>
>>delivery. This is most necessary and useful at the local level,<BR>
>>where there is one path to the user's computer. Although higher tier<BR>
>>ISPs have the capability to make the same declaration, it's not<BR>
>>useful to the user in that the routes traversed by packets are likely<BR>
>>to belong to multiple carriers and in theory may even vary, packet by<BR>
>>packet.<BR>
>><BR>
>>This is a REAL Internet governance topic.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Regards,<BR>
>><BR>
>>George<BR>
>><BR>
>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
>><BR>
>><BR>
>><BR>
>>At 12:34 PM -0200 1/8/09, Carlos Afonso wrote:<BR>
>><BR>
>><BR>
>>>Regarding the growing drive for doing ever more complex analyses under<BR>
>>>the "net neutrality" umbrella, I would recommend Sandvig's article<BR>
>>>(unfortunately, the English version is available for a price at<BR>
>>><<A HREF="http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/mcb/272/2007/00000009/F0020002/ar">http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/mcb/272/2007/00000009/F0020002/ar</A>><A HREF="http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/mcb/272/2007/00000009/F0020002/ar">http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/mcb/272/2007/00000009/F0020002/ar</A><BR>
>>>t00012),<BR>
>>>which we have just published in Portuguese in our magazine poliTICs<BR>
>>>(<<A HREF="http://www.politics.org.br">http://www.politics.org.br</A>>www.politics.org.br). If you can<BR>
>>>manage Portuguese, please download the<BR>
>>>PDF version under a CC licence from the site.<BR>
>>><BR>
>>>In reading the recent contributions (including Sandvig's), I feel most<BR>
>>>if not all of them do not take the user approach to NN in<BR>
>>>consideration. I mean, I am sitting at a home in X city in Y state in Z<BR>
>>>country using XXX ADSL operator and such and such things which seem to<BR>
>>>reveal packet manipulation of some sort on the part of the XXX operator<BR>
>>>is happening. How do I deal with it, what are the legal/regulatory<BR>
>>>handles (or lack<BR>
>>>thereof) I can use to protect myself against such manipulation, what<BR>
>>>political involvement I should consider to change this (thinking of the<BR>
>>>brainers who try and write action-oriented papers) and so on.<BR>
>>><BR>
>>>However, in any case and whatever the approach, I insist in considering<BR>
>>>NN (whatever the name you wish to choose for it) a key topic for IGF.<BR>
>>><BR>
>>>frt rgds<BR>
>>><BR>
>>>--c.a.<BR>
>>><BR>
>>> <BR>
>>><BR>
>><BR>
>>-----------------<<snip>>-----------------------<BR>
>><BR>
>><BR>
>><BR>
>><BR>
>><BR>
><BR>
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