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<p class=MsoNormal dir=LTR><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>This is a slightly
revised version of the email I just sent, after reading Parminder’s post
to the BOR list. Changes are in all caps for ease of reading.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal dir=LTR><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal dir=LTR><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Parminder says: (starting
by quoting Ian)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal dir=LTR><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal dir=LTR><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>“</span></font>So,
the real task/ question is as you [Ian] put it ‘what are the desirable
network qualities that we are looking to protect or enhance? Can we express
them another way?’”<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal dir=LTR><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal dir=LTR><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>“However, as argued earlier, at least
provisionally, I [Parminder] would not want to jettison the NN term and slogan,
because it has gathered some brand image and mass behind it, and I do think
that most people advocating NN do understand it as a socio-political issue and
not a technical issue.” (end quote)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal dir=LTR><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal dir=LTR><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>I think that our statement can support compliance with
a desired principle and end result that defines OUR concerns, adding a parenthetical
reference such as (sometimes/commonly included/known as in definitions of NN).
The same “brand image and mass behind” the term allow it to be
dismissed with allegations of “that’s not what NN means” if
we are not precise.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal dir=LTR><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal dir=LTR><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>I think we have to define exactly what our concerns
are, address them in the statement, and then use the term NN if it helps
clarify our position. Can we do that in a concise, concrete manner? <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal dir=LTR><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal dir=LTR><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>To be effective, we need to have a short, practical,
powerful statement. We could do this by outlining the importance of a [REMOVE: rights]
RESPONSIBILITY or PRINCIPLES-based framework with a specific reference to
support end-user choice and control -- MY view of NN </span></font><font
face=Wingdings><span style='font-family:Wingdings'>J</span></font> -- and a
practical emphasis for the next IGF: greater voice and inclusion enhanced
remote participation.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal dir=LTR><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal dir=LTR><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Thanks, everyone for moving the discussion forward.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal dir=LTR><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal dir=LTR><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal dir=LTR><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal dir=LTR><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal dir=LTR><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Parminder says: (starting
by quoting Ian)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal dir=LTR><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal dir=LTR><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>“</span></font>So,
the real task/ question is as you [Ian] put it ‘what are the desirable
network qualities that we are looking to protect or enhance? Can we express
them another way?’”<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal dir=LTR><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal dir=LTR><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>“However, as argued earlier, at least
provisionally, I [Parminder] would not want to jettison the NN term and slogan,
because it has gathered some brand image and mass behind it, and I do think
that most people advocating NN do understand it as a socio-political issue and
not a technical issue.” (end quote)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal dir=LTR><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal dir=LTR><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>I think that our statement can support compliance with
a desired principle and end result that defines OUR concerns, adding a parenthetical
reference such as (sometimes/commonly included/known as in definitions of NN).
The same “brand image and mass behind” the term allow it to be
dismissed with allegations of “that’s not what NN means” if
we are not precise.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal dir=LTR><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal dir=LTR><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>I think we have to define exactly what our concerns
are, address them in the statement, and then use the term NN if it helps
clarify our position. Can we do that in a concise, concrete manner? <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal dir=LTR><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal dir=LTR><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>To be effective, we need to have a short, practical,
powerful statement. We could do this by outlining the importance of a
rights-based framework with a specific reference to support end-user choice and
control -- MY view of NN </span></font><font face=Wingdings><span
style='font-family:Wingdings'>J</span></font> -- and a practical emphasis for
the next IGF: greater voice and inclusion enhanced remote participation.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal dir=LTR><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal dir=LTR><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Thanks, everyone for moving the discussion forward.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal dir=LTR><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal dir=LTR><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal dir=LTR><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center dir=LTR style='text-align:center'><font
size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span lang=ES style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:windowtext'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal dir=LTR><b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span
lang=ES style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:windowtext;font-weight:
bold'>De:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span lang=ES
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:windowtext'> Parminder
[mailto:parminder@itforchange.net] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Enviado el:</span></b> Viernes, 09 de Enero
de 2009 01:30 a.m.<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Para:</span></b> governance@lists.cpsr.org;
Ian Peter<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>CC:</span></b> 'George Sadowsky'<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Asunto:</span></b> Re: [governance] What is Network
Neutrality</span></font><font color=black><span lang=ES style='color:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal dir=LTR><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal dir=LTR><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Ian<br>
<br>
I don't think any serious actor in the policy space takes NN (network
neutrality) as any kind of absolute technical architectural principle any
longer, because of the reasons you have laid out. So, the real task/ question
is as you put it "what are the desirable network qualities that we are
looking to protect or enhance? Can we express them another way?"<br>
<br>
However, as argued earlier, at least provisionally, I would not want to
jettison the NN term and slogan, because it has gathered some brand image and
mass behind it, and I do think that most people advocating NN do understand it
as a socio-political issue and not a technical issue. <br>
<br>
I have neither a technical background, nor much interest in technical issues,
and am myself looking it from a political and advocacy angle, which in my view
has taken up some amount of urgency. Obama administration is likely
to take up some legislative work on NN very soon - in the early
messiahnic zeal of a government voted on the pomise of some real change - and
however much I hate a single country determinine global political issues, what
gets decided in the Washington's corridors of power during this period may have
an irreversible impact on the future of the Internet. <br>
<br>
In this context, I am really bothered whether NN would get understood as how
Obama himself put it<br>
<br>
""What you've been seeing is some lobbying that says that the servers
and the various portals through which you're getting information over the
Internet should be able to be gatekeepers and to charge different rates to
different Web sites...so you could get much better quality from the Fox News
site and you'd be getting rotten service from the mom and pop sites," he
went on. "And that I think destroys one of the best things about the Internet--which
is that there is this incredible equality there." ( <a
href="http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-9806707-7.html">http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-9806707-7.html</a>
)<br>
<br>
or as Lawrence Lessig, who is tipped to become in some way or the other a close
adviser to Obama on this issue, sees it. Lessig says that charging content
providers differentially is ok by his definition of NN. <br>
<br>
It is my humble opinion that between these two positions lies a world of
difference, and the real battle will be situated in this space. I think the
Internet as we know - and as we cherish in its egalitarian qualities -
will be history if Lessig's version of NN is adopted by the new <st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">US</st1:country-region></st1:place>
administration. This in my view is the point in NN debate and advocacy that
requires urgent attention. <br>
<br>
In this context it is especially important that the IGC makes all effort to see
that NN becomes a central issue on the IGF's agenda this year. <br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Ian Peter wrote: <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<pre dir=LTR wrap=""><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>I hear the call that net neutrality needs to be an ongoing discussion with<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>IGF and we should include it in our submissions in February.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre dir=LTR><font size=2
color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>But I have the same trouble with net neutrality as I do with end to end.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Both are being used as some sort of architectural principle that guarantees<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>the public good, when their inclusion in network architecture was more a<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>feature of the simple dumb network than some sort of intelligent design to<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>protect future generations of internet users from a range of abuses foreseen<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>decades ago. <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre dir=LTR><font size=2
color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Both architectural principles are subject to distortions and the future<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Internet will be neither fully end to end nor fully neutral. In fact, as<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>dogmatic network architectures they have already disappeared and it's of no<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>use to us to argue against internal corporate networks (a breach of end to<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>end)or traffic shaping (a breach of network neutrality) and all such. It's<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>not what it's all about.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre dir=LTR><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>The purpose of both end to end and net neutrality discussions from our<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>perspective should be to guarantee that a future Internet possesses certain<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>qualities which have made the Internet the valuable facility it is. I think<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>we confuse these fundamental requirements by making them absolute<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>architectural principles that lead to these being discussed as carrier and<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>network management issues rather than user issues. <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre dir=LTR><font size=2
color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>So to me the questions are - what are the desirable network qualities that<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>we are looking to protect or enhance? Can we express them another way?<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre dir=LTR><font size=2
color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Some better language might help us to get better results. Governments will<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>tend to understand some basic principles, but when vague terms are thrown at<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>them such as end to end or network neutrality that have a range of meanings<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>there are more likely to just bow to commercial interests who can point out<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>in plain English to them their problems with the concepts.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre dir=LTR><font size=2
color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>So I think I am agreeing with Carlos and George, but trying to point out<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>there might be a problem in the way we are addressing the subject. But I<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>don't expect to win that one for a while yet.....<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre dir=LTR><font size=2
color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Ian Peter<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre dir=LTR><st1:address
w:st="on"><st1:Street w:st="on"><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>PO Box</span></font></st1:Street> 429</st1:address><o:p></o:p></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Bangalow NSW 2479<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre dir=LTR><st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on"><font size=2 color=black
face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Australia</span></font></st1:country-region></st1:place><o:p></o:p></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Tel (+614) 1966 7772 or (+612) 6687 0773<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><a href="http://www.ianpeter.com">www.ianpeter.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black
face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre dir=LTR><font size=2
color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite><pre
dir=LTR wrap=""><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>From: George Sadowsky [<a href="mailto:george.sadowsky@attglobal.net">mailto:george.sadowsky@attglobal.net</a>]<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Sent: 09 January 2009 02:02<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre dir=LTR><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>To: <a
href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a>; Carlos Afonso; Parminder<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Cc: McTim; Steve Anderson; Milton L Mueller; Michael Gurstein; Brian<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Beaton; <a href="mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com">isolatedn@gmail.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Subject: Re: [governance] What is Network Neutrality<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre dir=LTR><font size=2
color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>All,<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre dir=LTR><font size=2
color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>I like very much Carlos' suggested approach of focusing on net<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>neutrality. In addition to addressing edge-content manipulation by<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>ISPs for whatever reason, it addresses the issue where (1) XXX is a<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>government, and packets in one or both directions may just end up in<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>the gulag (and sometimes with their senders and recipients, too!);<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>and (2) the potentially more beneficial case where SIPs are trying to<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>do spam control or other damage control of some kind. Note that this<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>would also diversion of traffic to alternate recipients, or simply<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>inspection of traffic in transit (e.g. the Great Chinese Firewall)<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre dir=LTR><font size=2
color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>There are, of course, different definitions of net neutrality, and<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>there are some thoughtful and challenging papers that address the<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>subject. It's probably worth at least establishing and contrasting<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>definitions, but more important, understanding what they imply for<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>users in areas such as privacy, confidentiality, and accuracy. I<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>agree with Carlos in that much of what I've seen does not concentrate<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>upon implications for the user.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre dir=LTR><font size=2
color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>I have never seen from an ISP a clear statement by an ISP of what the<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>ISP does with respect to traffic manipulation (if anything), and I<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>would think that a reasonable goal should be to establish a framework<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>that allows/requires an ISP to declare, in simple language or<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>languages, its policies with respect to content manipulation and<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>delivery. This is most necessary and useful at the local level,<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>where there is one path to the user's computer. Although higher tier<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>ISPs have the capability to make the same declaration, it's not<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>useful to the user in that the routes traversed by packets are likely<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>to belong to multiple carriers and in theory may even vary, packet by<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>packet.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre dir=LTR><font size=2
color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>This is a REAL Internet governance topic.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre dir=LTR><font size=2
color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre dir=LTR><font size=2
color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>George<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre dir=LTR><font size=2
color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>~<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black
face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre dir=LTR><font size=2
color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>At 12:34 PM -0200 1/8/09, Carlos Afonso wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite><pre
dir=LTR wrap=""><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>Regarding the growing drive for doing ever more complex analyses under<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>the "net neutrality" umbrella, I would recommend Sandvig's article<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>(unfortunately, the English version is available for a price at<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><a
href="http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/mcb/272/2007/00000009/F0020002/art0">http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/mcb/272/2007/00000009/F0020002/art0</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
<pre dir=LTR wrap=""><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>0012),<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre dir=LTR><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite><pre
dir=LTR wrap=""><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>which we have just published in Portuguese in our magazine poliTICs<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>(<a href="http://www.politics.org.br">www.politics.org.br</a>). If you can manage Portuguese, please download the<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>PDF version under a CC licence from the site.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre dir=LTR><font size=2
color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>In reading the recent contributions (including Sandvig's), I feel most<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>if not all of them do not take the user approach to NN in consideration.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>I mean, I am sitting at a home in X city in Y state in Z country using<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>XXX ADSL operator and such and such things which seem to reveal packet<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>manipulation of some sort on the part of the XXX operator is happening.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>How do I deal with it, what are the legal/regulatory handles (or lack<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>thereof) I can use to protect myself against such manipulation, what<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>political involvement I should consider to change this (thinking of the<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>brainers who try and write action-oriented papers) and so on.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre dir=LTR><font size=2
color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>However, in any case and whatever the approach, I insist in considering<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>NN (whatever the name you wish to choose for it) a key topic for IGF.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre dir=LTR><font size=2
color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>frt rgds<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre dir=LTR><font size=2
color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>--c.a.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre dir=LTR><font size=2
color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
<pre dir=LTR wrap=""><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>-----------------<<snip>>-----------------------<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre dir=LTR><font size=2
color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre dir=LTR><font size=2
color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>--<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre dir=LTR><font size=2
color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>George Sadowsky <a
href="mailto:george.sadowsky@gmail.com">george.sadowsky@gmail.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><st1:Street w:st="on"><st1:address w:st="on"><font size=2 color=black
face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>2182 Birch Way</span></font></st1:address></st1:Street> <a
href="mailto:george.sadowsky@attglobal.net">george.sadowsky@attglobal.net</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre
dir=LTR><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on"><font size=2 color=black
face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Woodstock</span></font></st1:City></st1:place>, VT 05091-8155 <a
href="http://www.georgesadowsky.org/">http://www.georgesadowsky.org/</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>tel: +1.802.457.3370 GSM mobile: +1.202.415.1933<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Voice mail & fax: +1.203.547.6020 Grand Central:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>+1.202.370.7734<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre dir=LTR><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>SKYPE: sadowsky<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>____________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
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10.0pt'> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
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dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
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color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>For all list information and functions, see:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'> <a
href="http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance">http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/governance</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
<pre dir=LTR wrap=""><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre dir=LTR><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>____________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre
dir=LTR><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
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10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre dir=LTR><font size=2
color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre
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