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<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>>>But
giving the above analysis of positive rights you may be falling in the trap of
Milton's simplistic rhetoric of caricaturing positive rights – like right to
livelihood or >>work, which he see as the right of everyone and anyone to
insist on employment with IT for Change, though of course we would gladly
employ Milton </span></font><font face=Wingdings><span style='font-family:Wingdings'>J</span></font>.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>>I would argue for or against what Milton says, for or against what
you or Ian say, but wouldn't make it personal. Have you run >out of
arguments against Milton? Is >that the reason why you have picked up on him
as a person? ( not that I know Milton or >fallen in Milton's
"trap". It is very imaginative to have thought of a >Milton's trap
) <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Siva<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>I didn’t say
anything personal to Milton. He wrote twice, give me a guaranteed job at ITfC when
I spoke of positive rights. I did not reply because I thought it was a
diversion. But it is a straight forward thing to call it a polemical trap,
which it most definitely is. I see nothing wrong in it, and don’t think even
Milton does. BTW, you may have missed that Milton said yesterday that I may be
being dishonest, and also that I was trying rhetoric. Do you think it is personal?
(Though I am not complaining.)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>You now do
say ‘I wrote nonsense to hint at the…’ whereby you are agreeing that you
caricatured the cited ‘right’. I said that such caricaturing approach is
problematic, and argued cited other positive rights – just my view….<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>> My
apologies to All for going into the basics when it is about time to conclude<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Not at
all. Basics are important in this debate.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>> The Internet has worked, is working and will work - on its own.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>What has happened with the Internet is of course extra-ordinary. But if
‘working on its own’ was all that is needed we are all here on a civil society
policy discussion/ advocacy forum are wasting our time, aren’t we. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>>…</span></font>, not by declaring
rights or demanding enforcement of rights.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>It is fine that you hold the view that a rights-based approach is not
useful in this area, and give your arguments.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>>Google Translate happened, more out of Google Community
participation than by the users demanding Translation as a matter >of right.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Lets hope that the same will automatically and spontaneously happen on
and about Google with regard to privacy, and freedom of expression of different
viewpoints and sources of knowledge (commercial and non-commercial, those
under-privileged with less ‘voice’ and those with dominant presence etc etc.)
But yes, this discussion is certainly useful.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Parminder </span></font><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Sivasubramanian
Muthusamy [mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, September 09, 2008
12:03 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Parminder<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> governance@lists.cpsr.org; Ian
Peter; Milton L Mueller<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [governance] Inputs
for synthesis paper</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Hello Parminder, Ian an
All,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at
11:23 AM, Parminder <<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'>
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<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Siva<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>While I
do agree with your earlier proposition that care must taken that governments do
not wrongly exploit the language of right, I cant agree with the basis of your
above understanding of 'rights'. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>A 'right'
isn't an electrical switch, which if pressed and full outcome is not realized,
the 'right' can be said to be meaningless. (This is true of all right –
negative and positive.) <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>You may
want to try your above analysis of 'meaninglessness' of linguistic rights on
the Internet to the 'right of education' enshrined in the Universal Declaration
of Human Rights. This was done in 1948, however universal primary education is
far from being completely realized. However, the existence of this 'right'
gives civil society the basis and strength for making a strong political claim
to universalisation of education policies, a struggle which is being keenly
fought in India right now, when the right to education bill in final stages,
while neoliberal influences in the government, who are more worried over
India's corporate performance, are actively trying to stall it by citing
funding problems. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Another
example; India's trade minister recently justified India's tough stance at the
WTO negotiations on safeguards aimed at protecting vulnerable farmers in India,
stated that he cannot back down on this issue because it is not about
commercial interests of India, on which negotiations are possible, but it is
about right of livelihood of Indian people. You can see how a 'rights' claim
differentiates and makes for higher and stronger basis than a mere ordinary
political claim, like protecting India' commercial interests.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>....... <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>>"right to have an Internet in ones own
language"<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>>What
if I say, "I speak Tamil at home, this discussion is an important public
discussion, I demand an instant Tamil version in my mail box of all messages
that >everyone writes" or what if I say "I want all <a
href="http://intgovforum.org/" target="_blank"
title="blocked::http://intgovforum.org/">intgovforum.org</a> and all the
collateral resources translated in Tamil in a Tamil website before this IGF is
allowed to >progress any further"? And what if I demand the proceedings
of the IGF simultaneously interpreted in Tamil and all documents officially
transcribed and published >in Tamil? And in Spanish and Portuguese and
American Spanish and Brazilian Portuguese and in Toda, the language of the Ooty
mountains, in Sanskrit, in Tulu, in >Assamese, in Kannada?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>If it not obvious, what I wrote as above is nonsense. I wrote nonsense
to hint at the shape of demands to come if we are to take the rights based
approach.<br>
<br>
My apologies to All for going into the basics when it is about time to
conclude. <br>
<br>
"right to have an Internet in ones own language" as an example
sentence:<br>
<br>
No one woke up Eric Schmidt with thunderous slogans in the middle of the night
to demand Google to translate. And no one wrote to his or her parliamentary
representative to raise a question in parliament to initiate a debate to pass a
resolution to direct the Government to instruct the Ambassador to the United
Nations to introduce a draft resolution, diplomatically maneuver to get it
voted upon resolving that the General Assembly calling upon the Government of
United States to direct the US Department of Commerce to arm twist Google into
translating search results and web pages. Google Translate happened, more out
of Google Community participation than by the users demanding Translation as a
matter of right.<br>
<br>
The Internet has worked, is working and will work - on its own. <b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>The Internet is not machines or wires, it is people</span></b>.
The Internet is 1.3 billion people today, would be 6 billion people tomorrow.
People create and participate. That is the magic of Internet.<br>
<br>
Internet relies on collaboration and on processes that are local,
bottom-up, open and accessible to individuals around the world. This model
clearly works and works well. <br>
<br>
Progress has happened, is happening and will happen on the Internet, not by
declaring rights or demanding enforcement of rights. The Internet organizations
largely grew up organically, and work together in a collaborative manner,
respecting each other's needs, roles and expertise. They are not hierarchically
organized, and all understand and respect the interdependencies and inherent
needs <br>
<br>
Progress and Innovation happens not by public, collective or individual
"demand" but by public, collective and individual participation in
the processes.<br>
<br>
The common vision is that of an open, accessible and global Internet. So far it
has been happening, not on demand, not by declaring and clamoring for rights, b
participation. The Internet - the people - participate, discuss and cause
everything desirable to happen.<br>
<br>
What worries me is this: Take a look at a title such as a "peace keeping
coalition force". What does it do? It goes to war. Think along these
lines. What would happen if you debate about rights and draw up a
"Declaration of Internet Rights"? You will end up creating rules. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'>
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<div>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>But
giving the above analysis of positive rights you may be falling in the trap of
Milton's simplistic rhetoric of caricaturing positive rights – like right to
livelihood or work, which he see as the right of everyone and anyone to insist
on employment with IT for Change, though of course we would gladly employ
Milton </span></font><font face=Wingdings><span style='font-family:Wingdings'>J</span></font>.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>I would argue for or against what Milton says, for or against what you
or Ian say, but wouldn't make it personal. Have you run out of arguments
against Milton? Is that the reason why you have picked up on him as a
person? ( not that I know Milton or fallen in Milton's "trap".
It is very imaginative to have thought of a Milton's trap ) <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Parminder
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Sivasubramanian Muthusamy [mailto:<a
href="mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com" target="_blank">isolatedn@gmail.com</a>] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, September 09, 2008
9:32 AM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <a
href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a>;
Ian Peter<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Milton L Mueller<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [governance] Inputs
for synthesis paper</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Meant to be addressed to: Hello Ian and All, (Milton's
opinions are well respected. But this message is technically isn't a reply to
Milton)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>On Tue,
Sep 9, 2008 at 9:22 AM, Sivasubramanian Muthusamy <<a
href="mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com" target="_blank">isolatedn@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Hello
Milton,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
<br>
"right to have an Internet in ones own language"<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>What if I say, "I speak Tamil at home, this
discussion is an important public discussion, I demand an instant Tamil version
in my mail box of all messages that everyone writes" or what if I
say "I want all <a href="http://intgovforum.org" target="_blank">intgovforum.org</a>
and all the collateral resources translated in Tamil in a Tamil website before
this IGF is allowed to progress any further"? And what if I demand the
proceedings of the IGF simultaneously interpreted in Tamil and all documents
officially transcribed and published in Tamil? And in Spanish and Portuguese
and American Spanish and Brazilian Portuguese and in Toda, the language of the
Ooty mountains, in Sanskrit, in Tulu, in Assamese, in Kannada?<br>
<br>
There is so much to be DELETED in this draft.<br>
<font color="#888888"><span style='color:#888888'><br>
Sivasubramanian Muthusamy<br>
India</span></font><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>On Tue,
Sep 9, 2008 at 8:56 AM, Ian Peter <<a href="mailto:ian.peter@ianpeter.com"
target="_blank">ian.peter@ianpeter.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
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<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>Well there might be different emphases in a womens rights
movement Milton and I don't think we need to demand the emphases be exactly the
same. But that and many other issues here can wait till another day.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>The important thing is that we seem to agree on the main
thrust of the submission. I've enjoyed seeing the differing points of view here
but perhaps now we need to collectively concentrate on getting the text
together – next week the ongoing debate can happily continue.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:navy'>Ian Peter</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:navy'>Ian Peter and Associates Pty Ltd</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:navy'>PO Box 10670 Adelaide St Brisbane 4000</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:navy'>Australia</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:navy'>Tel (+614) 1966 7772 or (+612) 6687 0773</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:navy'><a href="http://www.ianpeter.com" target="_blank">www.ianpeter.com</a></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Milton L Mueller [mailto:<a
href="mailto:mueller@syr.edu" target="_blank">mueller@syr.edu</a>] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> 09 September 2008 08:17<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <a
href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a>;
Ian Peter</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE: [governance] Inputs
for synthesis paper</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Ian Peter
[mailto:<a href="mailto:ian.peter@ianpeter.com" target="_blank">ian.peter@ianpeter.com</a>]
<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, September 08, 2008
3:42 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <a
href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE: [governance] Inputs
for synthesis paper</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>So womens rights is a collective right? Indigenous land
rights is a collective right? </span></font><font size=2 color=blue
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:blue'>No, unless you believe that the rights of woman are completely
different from the rights of men. In other words, patriarchal (or matriarchal)
societies that assign superior or different rights based on gender believe in
collective rights. Liberal societies that afford men, women and the
transgendered equal rights based ontheir status as individuals are based on
individual rights. So now tell me where you count yourself. ;-)</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:blue'>Indigenous land rights are more complicated. An individualist
approach would certainly recognize the ability of groups (e.g., publicly owned
corporations or even political communities) to own land, but see these as
extensions of individual rights (as Tapani pointed out). However, the property
rights of a very different culture may not be recognizable to a modern
legal regime, and vice-versa, and so it may be better to handle those
situations as a kind of special sovereignty. However, a collectivist approach
to property rights can just as easily work against indigenous minorities
as for them. I am sure you know the history. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>But for the sake of this submission, we obviously need to
reflect differing opinions. Can't we find a simple way forward here? Isn't it
as simple as a statement such as "while differing opinions on individual
and collective rights exist" within the context of the general request,
which is to make rights a main theme for Cairo? (which doesn't seem to be
disputed)</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:blue'>That's what I thought my original edit did. I'd be happy to
delete the line about how state-provided internet access might be used to violate
other rights, even though I think the point is true and salient, I recognize
that it may be a bit too in-your-face. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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PM</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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