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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Hi Sivasubramanian,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Our issue here is to prepare a paper (or
papers) for submission within about 3 days from now. I doubt we can thoroughly
explore any of these proposed themes in that timeframe. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>We might have a lot of passion and
differing viewpoints on rights and how they relate to Internet governance, that
to me makes it a great subject for further exploration with all stakeholders.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoAutoSig><st1:PersonName w:st="on"><font size=3 color=navy
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>Ian Peter</span></font></st1:PersonName><font
color=navy><span style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoAutoSig><st1:PersonName w:st="on"><font size=3 color=navy
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>Ian Peter</span></font></st1:PersonName><font
color=navy><span style='color:navy'> and Associates Pty Ltd<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoAutoSig><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>PO Box <st1:address w:st="on"><st1:Street
w:st="on">10670 Adelaide St</st1:Street> <st1:City w:st="on">Brisbane</st1:City></st1:address>
4000<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoAutoSig><st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on"><font
size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:navy'>Australia</span></font></st1:place></st1:country-region><font
color=navy><span style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoAutoSig><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>Tel (+614) 1966 7772 or (+612) 6687 0773<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoAutoSig><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>www.ianpeter.com<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoAutoSig><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Sivasubramanian
Muthusamy [mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> 09 September 2008 06:48<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">governance@lists.cpsr.org</st1:PersonName>;
<st1:PersonName w:st="on">Ian Peter</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [governance] Inputs
for synthesis paper</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 1:11 AM, <st1:PersonName w:st="on">Ian Peter</st1:PersonName>
<<a href="mailto:ian.peter@ianpeter.com">ian.peter@ianpeter.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
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<div link=blue vlink=blue>
<div>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>within the context of the general request, which is to make
rights a main theme for <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Cairo</st1:place></st1:City>?
(which doesn't seem to be disputed)</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
Hello Ian and Parminder,<br>
<br>
I have one of Parminder's documents embedded in my blog and took a rapid look
at it to find interesting alternatives to the theme of rights, and found that
the document talks about Internet as Public Infrastructure. <br>
<br>
There has been a lot of passion about this topic of "rights" but this
topic is dangerous territory. Can we think of "Internet as Public
Infrastructure" as the overwhelming theme of the IGF, <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Cairo</st1:place></st1:City>?<br>
<br>
The other themes that occurred to me are "Depoliticizing the
Internet", again from Parminder's document, but this theme again is a
double edged sword like the theme of "Rights" and would charge the
IGF atmosphere with a lot of political debates. <br>
<br>
One more theme could be the broad theme of "preserving the essential
characteristics of the Internet in the process of unrestrained growth" or
even simply "Internet for the next billion users- challenges in
Governance"<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'>
<div link=blue vlink=blue>
<div>
<div>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p><st1:PersonName w:st="on"><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>Ian Peter</span></font></st1:PersonName><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><st1:PersonName w:st="on"><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>Ian Peter</span></font></st1:PersonName><font
color=navy><span style='color:navy'> and Associates Pty Ltd</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:navy'>PO Box <st1:address w:st="on"><st1:Street w:st="on">10670 Adelaide
St</st1:Street> <st1:City w:st="on">Brisbane</st1:City></st1:address>
4000</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on"><font size=3 color=navy
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>Australia</span></font></st1:place></st1:country-region><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:navy'>Tel (+614) 1966 7772 or (+612) 6687 0773</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:navy'><a href="http://www.ianpeter.com" target="_blank">www.ianpeter.com</a></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Sivasubramanian Muthusamy [mailto:<a
href="mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com" target="_blank">isolatedn@gmail.com</a>] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> 09 September 2008 04:35<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <a
href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a>;
Tapani Tarvainen<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [governance] Inputs
for synthesis paper<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Hello
Parminder and All,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
<br>
All the heat is about the connotations of the term "collective
rights". I tried to understand the distinction between individual right
and collective right and this is what I <a
href="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/5357/ihr6a.html" target="_blank">found:</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><i><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-style:italic'>Individual Rights apply to the
generic individual without regard to his or her identity.... These rights are
determined with no knowledge of what our actual economic standing, educational
level, gender, or ethnic origin would be. Most international and national
formulations of human rights are drafted in such a way as to apply to a generic
individual.</span></font></i> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p><i><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-style:italic'>Collective rights, however, do not start with the individual
but rather with a specific group. Individuals are defined by their membership
in that group, which thus differentiates them from others in society. Some
collectives are formed by choice (religious affiliation in the <st1:country-region
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">United States</st1:place></st1:country-region>,
for example). Others are predetermined (the traditional understanding of
gender, for example). Collective rights begin with the premise that the group
has a claim to make. Historically, we can see numerous examples of group
treatment (generally negative). In the <st1:place w:st="on">Roman Empire</st1:place>,
for example, Jews possessed the status of a <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>religio
licita</span></b>, and as such enjoyed specific rights as Jews--the right not
to work on the Sabbath, or to recognize the divinity of the Emperor. Such
rights were granted to the Jewish collective and thus to the individual Jew of
the Empire by virtue of being Jewish and thus distinct from Greeks or Syrians
or Celts in the Empire. The <st1:place w:st="on">Ottoman Empire</st1:place> was
governed under the <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>millet</span></b> system,
by which each group in the Empire was defined via their religious community.
Thus, people living in the same town but belonging to different faiths had
different rights and obligations on account of their group membership. A vague
notion of collective rights also lay behind the concept of
extra-territoriality, that people, by virtue of their citizenship, in foreign
lands should be governed, not by local law, but by the laws of their
originating state. ---- from a Lecture of Dr. Nikolas K. Gvosdev, </span></font>Editor
of The National Interest and a Senior Fellow in Strategic Studies at The <st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Nixon</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType w:st="on">Center</st1:PlaceType></st1:place>.</i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Internet
Governance Caucus can propose Collective Rights if we would like to see
different bandwidth plans for men and women, priority access for "backward
and "most backward" classes as invented in <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">India</st1:place></st1:country-region>, publishing space
discrimination between different </span></font>churches, and free DVD movies
for those who live in mountains.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Sivasubramanian
Muthusamy.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on"><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>India</span></font></st1:place></st1:country-region>.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>On Mon,
Sep 8, 2008 at 10:41 PM, Tapani Tarvainen <<a
href="mailto:tapani.tarvainen@effi.org" target="_blank">tapani.tarvainen@effi.org</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>On Mon, Sep 08, 2008 at 10:02:20PM +0530, Parminder (<a
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net" target="_blank">parminder@itforchange.net</a>)
wrote:<br>
<br>
> 'Collective rights' is obviously an analytical category and not a right as<br>
> such. So when I speak of collective rights I am clearly meaning specific<br>
> rights like rights of indigenous people, linguistic rights, cultural
rights,<br>
> minority rights, right to development etc.<br>
<br>
> To say that one doesn't believe in collective rights one must be able to
say<br>
> that one doesn't believe in the above rights.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>It does
not follow if one does not agree that those rights are collective.<br>
<br>
I suspect one or maybe the key problem here is that the term indeed<br>
carries different meanings, and people want to reject some of them.<br>
<br>
In particular, probably few (?) people would oppose collective<br>
rights as justification of individual rights - rights individuals<br>
would have because of their membership in a group.<br>
The opposition stems from the other meaning, where collective<br>
rights would justify depriving individuals of their rights.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
> In fact I am fine if one is ready to accept a long list of all these
rights,<br>
> and not mention the terms negative, positive and collective rights. That<br>
> merely would mean one thinks all these rights, along with those that may
be<br>
> considered negative and positive rights are in the same category, and need<br>
> not be differentiated. I could in fact be happier with such a position.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>That
might be a useful approach.<br>
<br>
--<br>
<font color="#888888"><span style='color:#888888'>Tapani Tarvainen</span></font><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
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<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
<br clear=all>
<br>
-- <br>
<a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/sivasubramanianmuthusamy" target="_blank">http://www.linkedin.com/in/sivasubramanianmuthusamy</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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</div>
<p><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Internal
Virus Database is out of date.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><br>
Checked by AVG - <a href="http://www.avg.com" target="_blank">http://www.avg.com</a><br>
Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.0/1602 - Release Date: 8/9/2008 1:22
PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
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</blockquote>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<br clear=all>
<br>
-- <br>
<a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/sivasubramanianmuthusamy">http://www.linkedin.com/in/sivasubramanianmuthusamy</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Internal
Virus Database is out of date.<br>
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com<br>
Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.0/1602 - Release Date: 8/9/2008 1:22
PM</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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