<div dir="ltr">Hello Parminder, Ian an All,<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 11:23 AM, Parminder <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div link="blue" vlink="blue" lang="EN-US"><div><div class="Ih2E3d"><p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"></span></font></p>
</div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div link="blue" vlink="blue" lang="EN-US"><div><div class="Ih2E3d">
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"></span></font></p>
</div>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Siva<br> </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">While I do agree with your earlier proposition that care must taken that
governments do not wrongly exploit the language of right, I cant agree with the
basis of your above understanding of 'rights'. <br></span></font></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">A 'right' isn't an electrical switch, which if pressed and full outcome
is not realized, the 'right' can be said to be meaningless. (This is true of
all right – negative and positive.) <br></span></font></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">You may want to try your above analysis of 'meaninglessness' of linguistic
rights on the Internet to the 'right of education' enshrined in the Universal Declaration
of Human Rights. This was done in 1948, however universal primary education is
far from being completely realized. However, the existence of this 'right' gives
civil society the basis and strength for making a strong political claim to universalisation
of education policies, a struggle which is being keenly fought in India right now,
when the right to education bill in final stages, while neoliberal influences
in the government, who are more worried over India's corporate performance, are
actively trying to stall it by citing funding problems. <br></span></font></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Another example; India's trade minister recently justified India's
tough stance at the WTO negotiations on safeguards aimed at protecting vulnerable
farmers in India, stated that he cannot back down on this issue because it is
not about commercial interests of India, on which negotiations are possible,
but it is about right of livelihood of Indian people. You can see how a 'rights'
claim differentiates and makes for higher and stronger basis than a mere
ordinary political claim, like protecting India' commercial interests.</span></font></p></div></div></blockquote><div>....... <br></div><div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div link="blue" vlink="blue" lang="EN-US">
<div><div class="Ih2E3d">
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">>"right to have
an Internet in ones own language"</span></font></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">>What if I say, "I speak Tamil at home, this discussion is an
important public discussion, I demand an instant Tamil version in my mail box
of all messages that >everyone writes" or what if I say "I
want all <a href="http://intgovforum.org/" title="blocked::http://intgovforum.org/" target="_blank">intgovforum.org</a> and all the
collateral resources translated in Tamil in a Tamil website before this IGF is
allowed to >progress any further"? And what if I demand the proceedings
of the IGF simultaneously interpreted in Tamil and all documents officially
transcribed and published >in Tamil? And in Spanish and Portuguese and
American Spanish and Brazilian Portuguese and in Toda, the language of the Ooty
mountains, in Sanskrit, in Tulu, in >Assamese, in Kannada?</span></font></p></div></div></div></blockquote>If
it not obvious, what I wrote as above is nonsense. I wrote nonsense to
hint at the shape of demands to come if we are to take the rights based
approach.<br>
<br>
My apologies to All for going into the basics when it is about time to conclude. <br>
<br>
"right to have an Internet in
ones own language" as an example sentence:<br>
<br>
No
one woke up Eric Schmidt with thunderous slogans in the middle of the
night to demand Google to translate. And no one wrote to his or her
parliamentary representative to raise a question in parliament to
initiate a debate to pass a resolution to direct the Government to
instruct the Ambassador to the United Nations to introduce a draft
resolution, diplomatically maneuver to get it voted upon resolving that the General Assembly calling upon the
Government of United States to direct the US Department of Commerce to arm twist Google into
translating search results and web pages. Google Translate happened,
more out of Google Community participation than by the users demanding
Translation as a matter of right.<br>
<br>
The Internet has worked, is working and will work - on its own. <b>The
Internet is not machines or wires, it is people</b>. The Internet is 1.3
billion people today, would be 6 billion people tomorrow. People create
and participate. That is the magic of Internet.<br>
<br>
Internet relies on collaboration and on processes that are
local, bottom-up, open and accessible to individuals around the world. This model
clearly works and works well. <br>
<br>
Progress has happened, is happening and will happen on the Internet, not by declaring rights or demanding enforcement
of rights. The Internet organizations largely grew up organically, and
work
together in a collaborative manner, respecting each other's needs, roles and
expertise. They are not hierarchically organized, and all understand
and respect the interdependencies and inherent needs <br>
<br>Progress and Innovation happens not by public,
collective or individual "demand" but by public, collective and individual
participation in the processes.<br>
<br>
The common vision is that of an open, accessible and global
Internet. So far it has been
happening, not on demand, not by declaring and clamoring for rights,
b participation. The Internet - the people - participate, discuss and cause
everything desirable to happen.<br>
<br>
What worries me is this: Take a look at a title such as a "peace
keeping coalition force". What does it do? It goes to war. Think along
these lines. What would happen if you debate about rights and draw up a
"Declaration of Internet Rights"? You will end up creating rules.<font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"></span></font> <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div link="blue" vlink="blue" lang="EN-US"><div>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">But giving the above analysis of positive rights you may be falling in the
trap of Milton's simplistic rhetoric of caricaturing positive rights – like right
to livelihood or work, which he see as the right of everyone and anyone to
insist on employment with IT for Change, though of course we would gladly
employ Milton </span></font><font face="Wingdings"><span style="font-family: Wingdings;">J</span></font>.</p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"></span></font></p></div></div></blockquote><div>I would argue for or against what Milton says, for or against what you or Ian say, but wouldn't make it personal. Have you run out of arguments against Milton? Is that the reason why you have picked up on him as a person? ( not that I know Milton or fallen in Milton's "trap". It is very imaginative to have thought of a Milton's trap )<font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> <br>
</span></font></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div link="blue" vlink="blue" lang="EN-US"><div>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Parminder </span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> </span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> </span></font></p>
<div style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color blue; border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;">
<div>
<div style="text-align: center;" align="center"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">
<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%">
</span></font></div>
<p><b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;"> Sivasubramanian
Muthusamy [mailto:<a href="mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com" target="_blank">isolatedn@gmail.com</a>] <br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, September 09, 2008
9:32 AM<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a>; Ian
Peter<br>
</div><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b> Milton L Mueller<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [governance] Inputs
for synthesis paper</span></font></p>
</div><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
<div>
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Meant to be addressed to:
Hello Ian and All, (Milton's opinions are well respected. But this message is
technically isn't a reply to Milton)</span></font></p>
<div>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 9:22 AM, Sivasubramanian Muthusamy <<a href="mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com" target="_blank">isolatedn@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</span></font></p>
<div>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Hello Milton,</span></font></p>
<div>
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><br>
<br>
"right to have an Internet in ones own language"</span></font></p>
</div>
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">What if I say, "I
speak Tamil at home, this discussion is an important public discussion, I
demand an instant Tamil version in my mail box of all messages that everyone
writes" or what if I say "I want all <a href="http://intgovforum.org" target="_blank">intgovforum.org</a> and all the
collateral resources translated in Tamil in a Tamil website before this IGF is
allowed to progress any further"? And what if I demand the proceedings of
the IGF simultaneously interpreted in Tamil and all documents officially
transcribed and published in Tamil? And in Spanish and Portuguese and American
Spanish and Brazilian Portuguese and in Toda, the language of the Ooty
mountains, in Sanskrit, in Tulu, in Assamese, in Kannada?<br>
<br>
There is so much to be DELETED in this draft.<br>
<font color="#888888"><span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136);"><br>
Sivasubramanian Muthusamy<br>
India</span></font></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 8:56 AM, Ian Peter <<a href="mailto:ian.peter@ianpeter.com" target="_blank">ian.peter@ianpeter.com</a>>
wrote:</span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(204, 204, 204); border-width: medium medium medium 1pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;">
<div>
<div>
<div link="blue" vlink="blue">
<div>
<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">Well there might be different emphases in a womens rights
movement Milton and I don't think we need to demand the emphases be exactly the
same. But that and many other issues here can wait till another day.</span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> </span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">The important thing is that we seem to agree on the main
thrust of the submission. I've enjoyed seeing the differing points of view here
but perhaps now we need to collectively concentrate on getting the text
together – next week the ongoing debate can happily continue.</span></font></p>
<div>
<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> </span></font></p>
<div>
<p><font color="navy" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: navy;">Ian Peter</span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: navy;">Ian Peter and Associates Pty Ltd</span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: navy;">PO Box 10670 Adelaide St Brisbane 4000</span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: navy;">Australia</span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: navy;">Tel (+614) 1966 7772 or (+612) 6687 0773</span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: navy;"><a href="http://www.ianpeter.com" target="_blank">www.ianpeter.com</a></span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: navy;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
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<div>
<div style="text-align: center;" align="center"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">
<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%">
</span></font></div>
<p><b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;"> Milton L Mueller [mailto:<a href="mailto:mueller@syr.edu" target="_blank">mueller@syr.edu</a>] <br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> 09 September 2008 08:17<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a>;
Ian Peter</span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;"><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> RE: [governance] Inputs
for synthesis paper</span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
<blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color blue; border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;">
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
<div style="text-align: center;" align="center"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">
<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%">
</span></font></div>
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;"> Ian Peter
[mailto:<a href="mailto:ian.peter@ianpeter.com" target="_blank">ian.peter@ianpeter.com</a>]
<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Monday, September 08, 2008
3:42 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> <a href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> RE: [governance] Inputs
for synthesis paper</span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> </span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">So womens rights is a collective right? Indigenous land
rights is a collective right? </span></font><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;"> </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
<p><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">No, unless you believe that the rights of woman are
completely different from the rights of men. In other words, patriarchal (or
matriarchal) societies that assign superior or different rights based on gender
believe in collective rights. Liberal societies that afford men, women and the
transgendered equal rights based ontheir status as individuals are based on individual
rights. So now tell me where you count yourself. ;-)</span></font></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
<p><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">Indigenous land rights are more complicated. An individualist
approach would certainly recognize the ability of groups (e.g., publicly owned
corporations or even political communities) to own land, but see these as
extensions of individual rights (as Tapani pointed out). However, the property
rights of a very different culture may not be recognizable to a modern
legal regime, and vice-versa, and so it may be better to handle those situations
as a kind of special sovereignty. However, a collectivist approach
to property rights can just as easily work against indigenous minorities
as for them. I am sure you know the history. </span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> </span></font></p>
<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">But for the sake of this submission, we obviously need to
reflect differing opinions. Can't we find a simple way forward here? Isn't it
as simple as a statement such as "while differing opinions on individual
and collective rights exist" within the context of the general request,
which is to make rights a main theme for Cairo? (which doesn't seem to be
disputed)</span></font></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
<p><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">That's what I thought my original edit did. I'd be happy to
delete the line about how state-provided internet access might be used to
violate other rights, even though I think the point is true and salient, I
recognize that it may be a bit too in-your-face. </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Internal
Virus Database is out of date.</span></font></p>
<div>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"><br>
Checked by AVG - <a href="http://www.avg.com" target="_blank">http://www.avg.com</a><br>
Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.0/1602 - Release Date: 8/9/2008 1:22
PM</span></font></p>
</div>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
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</blockquote>
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<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><br>
<br clear="all">
</span></font></p>
<div>
<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><br>
-- <br>
<a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/sivasubramanianmuthusamy" target="_blank">http://www.linkedin.com/in/sivasubramanianmuthusamy</a></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
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<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
<a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/sivasubramanianmuthusamy" target="_blank">http://www.linkedin.com/in/sivasubramanianmuthusamy</a></span></font></p>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/sivasubramanianmuthusamy">http://www.linkedin.com/in/sivasubramanianmuthusamy</a><br>
</div>