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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>>"right to have
an Internet in ones own language"<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>>What if I say, "I speak Tamil at home, this discussion is an
important public discussion, I demand an instant Tamil version in my mail box
of all messages that >everyone writes" or what if I say "I
want all <a href="http://intgovforum.org" target="_blank"
title="blocked::http://intgovforum.org/">intgovforum.org</a> and all the
collateral resources translated in Tamil in a Tamil website before this IGF is
allowed to >progress any further"? And what if I demand the proceedings
of the IGF simultaneously interpreted in Tamil and all documents officially
transcribed and published >in Tamil? And in Spanish and Portuguese and
American Spanish and Brazilian Portuguese and in Toda, the language of the Ooty
mountains, in Sanskrit, in Tulu, in >Assamese, in Kannada?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Siva<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>While I do agree with your earlier proposition that care must taken that
governments do not wrongly exploit the language of right, I cant agree with the
basis of your above understanding of ‘rights’.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>A ‘right’ isn’t an electrical switch, which if pressed and full outcome
is not realized, the ‘right’ can be said to be meaningless. (This is true of
all right – negative and positive.)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>You may want to try your above analysis of ‘meaninglessness’ of linguistic
rights on the Internet to the ‘right of education’ enshrined in the Universal Declaration
of Human Rights. This was done in 1948, however universal primary education is
far from being completely realized. However, the existence of this ‘right’ gives
civil society the basis and strength for making a strong political claim to universalisation
of education policies, a struggle which is being keenly fought in India right now,
when the right to education bill in final stages, while neoliberal influences
in the government, who are more worried over India’s corporate performance, are
actively trying to stall it by citing funding problems. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Another example; India’s trade minister recently justified India’s
tough stance at the WTO negotiations on safeguards aimed at protecting vulnerable
farmers in India, stated that he cannot back down on this issue because it is
not about commercial interests of India, on which negotiations are possible,
but it is about right of livelihood of Indian people. You can see how a ‘rights’
claim differentiates and makes for higher and stronger basis than a mere
ordinary political claim, like protecting India’ commercial interests. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>But giving the above analysis of positive rights you may be falling in the
trap of Milton’s simplistic rhetoric of caricaturing positive rights – like right
to livelihood or work, which he see as the right of everyone and anyone to
insist on employment with IT for Change, though of course we would gladly
employ Milton </span></font><font face=Wingdings><span style='font-family:Wingdings'>J</span></font>.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Parminder <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'>
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<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Sivasubramanian
Muthusamy [mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, September 09, 2008
9:32 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> governance@lists.cpsr.org; Ian
Peter<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> Milton L Mueller<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [governance] Inputs
for synthesis paper</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Meant to be addressed to:
Hello Ian and All, (Milton's opinions are well respected. But this message is
technically isn't a reply to Milton)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 9:22 AM, Sivasubramanian Muthusamy <<a
href="mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com">isolatedn@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Hello Milton,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
<br>
"right to have an Internet in ones own language"<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>What if I say, "I
speak Tamil at home, this discussion is an important public discussion, I
demand an instant Tamil version in my mail box of all messages that everyone
writes" or what if I say "I want all <a
href="http://intgovforum.org" target="_blank">intgovforum.org</a> and all the
collateral resources translated in Tamil in a Tamil website before this IGF is
allowed to progress any further"? And what if I demand the proceedings of
the IGF simultaneously interpreted in Tamil and all documents officially
transcribed and published in Tamil? And in Spanish and Portuguese and American
Spanish and Brazilian Portuguese and in Toda, the language of the Ooty
mountains, in Sanskrit, in Tulu, in Assamese, in Kannada?<br>
<br>
There is so much to be DELETED in this draft.<br>
<font color="#888888"><span style='color:#888888'><br>
Sivasubramanian Muthusamy<br>
India</span></font><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 8:56 AM, Ian Peter <<a
href="mailto:ian.peter@ianpeter.com" target="_blank">ian.peter@ianpeter.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'>
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<div link=blue vlink=blue>
<div>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>Well there might be different emphases in a womens rights
movement Milton and I don't think we need to demand the emphases be exactly the
same. But that and many other issues here can wait till another day.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>The important thing is that we seem to agree on the main
thrust of the submission. I've enjoyed seeing the differing points of view here
but perhaps now we need to collectively concentrate on getting the text
together – next week the ongoing debate can happily continue.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:navy'>Ian Peter</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:navy'>Ian Peter and Associates Pty Ltd</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:navy'>PO Box 10670 Adelaide St Brisbane 4000</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:navy'>Australia</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:navy'>Tel (+614) 1966 7772 or (+612) 6687 0773</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:navy'><a href="http://www.ianpeter.com" target="_blank">www.ianpeter.com</a></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
border-color:-moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color blue'>
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face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
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<p><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Milton L Mueller [mailto:<a
href="mailto:mueller@syr.edu" target="_blank">mueller@syr.edu</a>] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> 09 September 2008 08:17<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <a
href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a>;
Ian Peter<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE: [governance] Inputs
for synthesis paper<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;
border-color:-moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color blue'>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Ian Peter
[mailto:<a href="mailto:ian.peter@ianpeter.com" target="_blank">ian.peter@ianpeter.com</a>]
<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, September 08, 2008
3:42 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <a
href="mailto:governance@lists.cpsr.org" target="_blank">governance@lists.cpsr.org</a><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE: [governance] Inputs
for synthesis paper</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>So womens rights is a collective right? Indigenous land
rights is a collective right? </span></font><font size=2 color=blue
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:blue'>No, unless you believe that the rights of woman are
completely different from the rights of men. In other words, patriarchal (or
matriarchal) societies that assign superior or different rights based on gender
believe in collective rights. Liberal societies that afford men, women and the
transgendered equal rights based ontheir status as individuals are based on individual
rights. So now tell me where you count yourself. ;-)</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:blue'>Indigenous land rights are more complicated. An individualist
approach would certainly recognize the ability of groups (e.g., publicly owned
corporations or even political communities) to own land, but see these as
extensions of individual rights (as Tapani pointed out). However, the property
rights of a very different culture may not be recognizable to a modern
legal regime, and vice-versa, and so it may be better to handle those situations
as a kind of special sovereignty. However, a collectivist approach
to property rights can just as easily work against indigenous minorities
as for them. I am sure you know the history. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>But for the sake of this submission, we obviously need to
reflect differing opinions. Can't we find a simple way forward here? Isn't it
as simple as a statement such as "while differing opinions on individual
and collective rights exist" within the context of the general request,
which is to make rights a main theme for Cairo? (which doesn't seem to be
disputed)</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:blue'>That's what I thought my original edit did. I'd be happy to
delete the line about how state-provided internet access might be used to
violate other rights, even though I think the point is true and salient, I
recognize that it may be a bit too in-your-face. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Internal
Virus Database is out of date.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><br>
Checked by AVG - <a href="http://www.avg.com" target="_blank">http://www.avg.com</a><br>
Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.0/1602 - Release Date: 8/9/2008 1:22
PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>____________________________________________________________<br>
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</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<br clear=all>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
-- <br>
<a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/sivasubramanianmuthusamy" target="_blank">http://www.linkedin.com/in/sivasubramanianmuthusamy</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<br clear=all>
<br>
-- <br>
<a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/sivasubramanianmuthusamy">http://www.linkedin.com/in/sivasubramanianmuthusamy</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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