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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Thanks for that definition, it really helps
me to understand things a bit better as I was a bit confused by this debate.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>So womens rights is a collective right? Indigenous
land rights is a collective right? <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>If so, please count me among those who do
believe in some collective rights.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>But for the sake of this submission, we
obviously need to reflect differing opinions. Can’t we find a simple way
forward here? Isn’t it as simple as a statement such as “while differing
opinions on individual and collective rights exist” within the context of
the general request, which is to make rights a main theme for <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Cairo</st1:place></st1:City>? (which doesn’t seem to be
disputed)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
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style='font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>www.ianpeter.com<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Sivasubramanian
Muthusamy [mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> 09 September 2008 04:35<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">governance@lists.cpsr.org</st1:PersonName>;
Tapani Tarvainen<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [governance] Inputs
for synthesis paper</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Hello Parminder and All,<br>
<br>
All the heat is about the connotations of the term "collective
rights". I tried to understand the distinction between individual right
and collective right and this is what I <a
href="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/5357/ihr6a.html">found:</a><br>
<br>
</span></font><i><font size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-style:italic'>Individual
Rights apply to the generic individual without regard to his or her
identity.... These rights are determined with no knowledge of what our actual
economic standing, educational level, gender, or ethnic origin would be. Most
international and national formulations of human rights are drafted in such a
way as to apply to a generic individual.</span></font></i> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><i><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-style:italic'>Collective rights, however, do not start with the individual
but rather with a specific group. Individuals are defined by their membership
in that group, which thus differentiates them from others in society. Some
collectives are formed by choice (religious affiliation in the <st1:country-region
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">United States</st1:place></st1:country-region>,
for example). Others are predetermined (the traditional understanding of
gender, for example). Collective rights begin with the premise that the group
has a claim to make. Historically, we can see numerous examples of group
treatment (generally negative). In the <st1:place w:st="on">Roman Empire</st1:place>,
for example, Jews possessed the status of a <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>religio
licita</span></b>, and as such enjoyed specific rights as Jews--the right not
to work on the Sabbath, or to recognize the divinity of the Emperor. Such
rights were granted to the Jewish collective and thus to the individual Jew of
the Empire by virtue of being Jewish and thus distinct from Greeks or Syrians
or Celts in the Empire. The <st1:place w:st="on">Ottoman Empire</st1:place> was
governed under the <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>millet</span></b> system,
by which each group in the Empire was defined via their religious community.
Thus, people living in the same town but belonging to different faiths had
different rights and obligations on account of their group membership. A vague
notion of collective rights also lay behind the concept of
extra-territoriality, that people, by virtue of their citizenship, in foreign
lands should be governed, not by local law, but by the laws of their
originating state. ---- from a Lecture of Dr. Nikolas K. Gvosdev, </span></font>Editor
of The National Interest and a Senior Fellow in Strategic Studies at The <st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Nixon</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType w:st="on">Center</st1:PlaceType></st1:place>.</i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Internet
Governance Caucus can propose Collective Rights if we would like to see
different bandwidth plans for men and women, priority access for "backward
and "most backward" classes as invented in <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">India</st1:place></st1:country-region>, publishing space
discrimination between different </span></font>churches, and free DVD movies
for those who live in mountains.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Sivasubramanian
Muthusamy.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on"><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>India</span></font></st1:place></st1:country-region>.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 10:41 PM, Tapani Tarvainen <<a
href="mailto:tapani.tarvainen@effi.org">tapani.tarvainen@effi.org</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>On Mon, Sep 08, 2008 at
10:02:20PM +0530, Parminder (<a href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>)
wrote:<br>
<br>
> 'Collective rights' is obviously an analytical category and not a right as<br>
> such. So when I speak of collective rights I am clearly meaning specific<br>
> rights like rights of indigenous people, linguistic rights, cultural
rights,<br>
> minority rights, right to development etc.<br>
<br>
> To say that one doesn't believe in collective rights one must be able to
say<br>
> that one doesn't believe in the above rights.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>It does not follow if one does not agree that those rights are
collective.<br>
<br>
I suspect one or maybe the key problem here is that the term indeed<br>
carries different meanings, and people want to reject some of them.<br>
<br>
In particular, probably few (?) people would oppose collective<br>
rights as justification of individual rights - rights individuals<br>
would have because of their membership in a group.<br>
The opposition stems from the other meaning, where collective<br>
rights would justify depriving individuals of their rights.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
> In fact I am fine if one is ready to accept a long list of all these
rights,<br>
> and not mention the terms negative, positive and collective rights. That<br>
> merely would mean one thinks all these rights, along with those that may
be<br>
> considered negative and positive rights are in the same category, and need<br>
> not be differentiated. I could in fact be happier with such a position.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>That might be a useful approach.<br>
<br>
--<br>
<font color="#888888"><span style='color:#888888'>Tapani Tarvainen</span></font><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
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<br clear=all>
<br>
-- <br>
<a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/sivasubramanianmuthusamy">http://www.linkedin.com/in/sivasubramanianmuthusamy</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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