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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Robin,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>‘Collective rights’ is obviously an
analytical category and not a right as such. So when I speak of collective rights
I am clearly meaning specific rights like rights of indigenous people, linguistic
rights, cultural rights, minority rights, right to development etc.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>To say that one doesn’t believe in collective
rights one must be able to say that one doesn’t believe in the above rights. That’s
a simple and direct derivation. Are you saying so? <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>One cannot say, no, I ‘do’ believe in all
or some of the rights listed above but not in collective rights as a category. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Negative, positive and collective rights
are categories of representation and analysis, and in fact help to underscore that
different sets of rights may need different justifications and analysis (something
which Tapani asked to be clarified).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>In fact I am fine if one is ready to
accept a long list of all these rights, and not mention the terms negative, positive
and collective rights. That merely would mean one thinks all these rights,
along with those that may be considered negative and positive rights are in the
same category, and need not be differentiated. I could in fact be happier with
such a position. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I quote what the IGC statement of July 19,
2005 to the WSIS process said about rights. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>“Among priority public policy issues are….”…..
Addressing human rights as a cross-cutting principle in relation to evolution
and use of the Internet. Nothing in Internet governance negotiations must
impair, restrict, or contradict universally agreed human rights.”<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Most of the rights I mention above are
universally agreed human rights. Many positive rights and collective rights are
certainly among what would constitute as the category of universally agreed human
rights as meant in the above statement. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>So while IGC at one time insisted that ‘Nothing
in Internet governance negotiations must impair, restrict, or contradict
universally agreed human rights’, and now if it issues a statement that ‘impair,
restrict, or contradict universally agreed human rights’ I for one, as an IGC
member, would certainly not want to be a party to it.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Parminder <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Robin Gross
[mailto:robin@ipjustice.org] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, September 08, 2008
7:38 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> governance@lists.cpsr.org;
Milton L Mueller<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> Parminder<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [governance] Inputs
for synthesis paper</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>I haven't been able to keep up on this discussion as I would have liked
to, but I wanted to weigh in (hopefully not too late and off topic).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>I also have deep concerns about promoting "collective" rights
because I see them as subordinating individual rights in potentially dangerous
ways (although no harm is intended). It is the sovereign individual that
is ultimately responsible. Individuals acting together can be
collectives, but it always breaks down to the individual in the end.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Robin<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>On Sep 5, 2008, at 6:43 AM, Milton L Mueller wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
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<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Parminder [<a
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">mailto:parminder@itforchange.net</a>] </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>Thanks Milton for this engagement. While, as you would expect, I
have a lot of issues with your amendments, this process of engagement and
deliberation is very useful. </span></font><font size=2 color=blue
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:blue'>Agreed. </span><u1:p></u1:p></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>It is important to recognize that there are two important and
different contestations here. One, whether there is at all a category of
positive and collective rights in any case whatsoever. My personal view is that
it is a very small minority among the IGC membership that really contests the
very validity of the category of positive and collective rights. I invite
members’ comments on this statement. Accordingly, I don’t think an IGC
statement should go out casting doubts on the very validity of these categories
of rights. I would therefore want all corresponding parts of the statement
removed.</span></font><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:blue'>But there is no doubt about the fact that it is contested. And it
is not just me, three or four others have taken up this discussion more or less
from my point of view. Based on the list dialogue this would look like almost a
50-50 division, but whether this is a "small minority" or a
significant minority doesn't matter, it is contested, and if the statement
doesn't reflect that I will opt out of it and issue a separate statement
contesting the legitimacy of your statement as an expression of IGC. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><u1:p></u1:p>The second contestation is about whether there are
some already accepted extensions of positive and collective rights to the
Internet – right to access internet (positive right) and right to cultural
expression or an Internet in ones own language (a collective right). I agree
that there may not be enough consensus in this group at present to assert these
rights, and we may only speak of exploring them, and debating the pros and
cons. Accordingly, I am for mentioning the language of ‘wanting to explore’
with regard to these rights. </span></font><font size=2 color=blue
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:blue'>I did not delete that language, in regard to
RTDevelopment, I think it is perfectly acceptable to "explore"
contested issues. </span><u1:p></u1:p></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:navy'>“The openness and diversity of the internet are underpinned by
widely recognized (but still imperfectly enforced) basic human rights: the
individual right to freedom of expression and to privacy. It may also be useful
to explore if and whether positive and collective rights are meaningful in
relation to the Internet – for instance a right to Internet access, or a right
of cultural expression - including the right to have an Internet in ones own
language, which can inform the important IGF thematic area of cultural
diversity.”</span></font><font color=blue><span style='color:blue'> </span></font><font
color=navy><span style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:blue'>This proposed amendment does not make it clear that there are
significant participants in CS who contest the positive and collectivist
notions, so I can't accept it.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:black'><u1:p></u1:p>“We recognize that while it is relatively easy to
articulate and claim “rights” it is much more difficult to implement and
enforce them. We also recognize that rights claims can sometimes conflict or
compete with each other. For example, a claim that there is a “right to
Internet access” may imply an obligation on states to fund and provide such
access, but it is likely that if states are responsible for supplying internet
access that there will also be strong pressures on them to exert controls over
what content users can access using public funds and facilities. There
can also be uncertainty about the proper application of a rights claim to a
factual situation. The change in the technical methods of communication often
undermines pre-existing understandings of how to apply legal categories. “</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
color:blue'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>This para clearly makes out a strong case against ‘right to the
Internet’ and is obviously not acceptable to those who speak for it. I would
delete the whole para. </span></font><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:blue'>So people who believe in a positive right to Internet access cannot
be contradicted, but those who do not can be? I think the only thing you need
to do is replace "it is likely that if states are responsible" with
"some fear that if states are responsible." That makes it
clear that there is disagreement. which there is.</span><u1:p></u1:p></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>I however find the last two sentences – which I know you state in
terms of meaningfulness of universal access – very interesting in terms of IPR
in digital space. But I discuss my issues with the IPR paragraph in a separate
email.</span></font><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:blue'>The last two sentences were meant to be general, not specific to
universal access or IPRs -- the principle applies to all kinds of issues, especially
privacy and identity. </span><u1:p></u1:p></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><u1:p></u1:p>I also have problem with the new opening para that you
propose.<u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=western style='margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=3
color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>“The
Tunis Agenda (para. 42) </span></font><font color=black><span lang=EN-GB
style='color:black'>invoked human rights when it reaffirmed a global
"commitment to the freedom to seek, receive, impart and use
information" and affirmed that "measures undertaken to ensure
Internet stability and security, to fight cybercrime and to counter spam, must
protect and respect the provisions for privacy and freedom of expression as
contained in the relevant parts of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights
and the Geneva Declaration of Principles." However, little follow up work
has been done to enact these commitments to basic human rights in Internet
governance.”<u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>If one mentions rights in the IG arena it is by default read as FoE
and privacy rights. While these are basic and very important rights, our effort
is to explore the rights terrain much further. As argued in my earlier email
the possibility that a broad rights agenda may at ant time be globally accepted
as a good basis for IG related policy discussions also lies in making the
rights discourse broader, </span></font><font size=2 color=blue
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:blue'>This is a tactical difference mainly, but also one of principle.
You start with the area where there is the most common ground. The point about
citing the Tunis Agenda is that governments have already committed themselves
to it, I think the line about balancing security concerns with other rights is
especially important. Even on your own expansive terms, it would be wiser to
start with the traditional rights and then move gradually into how far it can
be taken. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'> including concerns of what I call as the vast majority of
people, which go beyond these two rights. </span></font><font size=2
color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:blue'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:blue'>Just for the record, I do not accept your claim to speak for the
vast majority of people. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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