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<title>Re: [process] Re: [governance] USG on ICANN - no movement here</title>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face=Arial><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:Arial'>Bill<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face=Arial><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face=Arial><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:Arial'>>BTW, when people like John talk about ICANN needing
‘adult supervision,’ they are talking >about ICANN---the board,
et >al---needing oversight. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face=Arial><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:Arial'>(snip)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face=Arial><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:Arial'>>In contrast, I didn’t hear him saying that other
countries are juvenile, so characterizing the point as patronizing and
neo->imperialist seems a tad misplaced.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face=Arial><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face=Arial><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:Arial'>Yes, I know John said that it is the ICANN which needs adult
supervision of the US. But what you are ignoring is that he also said that ---
developing country governments “in reality … know that ICANN
desperately needs the DOC's adult supervision”.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face=Arial><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face=Arial><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:Arial'>First of all this is a blatant untruth. Developing country
governments hate the principle of US’s unilateral political supervision
of the ICANN (and you know that). The people and civil society in these
countries (mostly) hate it even more. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face=Arial><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face=Arial><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:Arial'>Second, to posit such a helpless dependency attitude as
characterizing developing countries (which as I said is untrue) is centrally
and strongly neo-imperialist. That’s the meaning of neo-imperialism. Period.
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face=Arial><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face=Arial><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:Arial'>So, I consider it my political duty to offer my political
critique to such a position using the political-analytical language of current
usage. (And, I would go further to say, I am as justified in also critiquing
the apologists for the proponents of such views.)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face=Arial><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face=Arial><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:Arial'>I do know it is not pleasant to be critiqued as holding
neo-imperialist views, but I am more bothered about the sensitivities of the
countries and people who are the butt of neo-imperialism rather than the
feelings of John Levine, if they be, inadvertently, touched in the process.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face=Arial><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face=Arial><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:Arial'>You can of course choose whose feelings you are more
bothered about depending upon personal or political preferences. But as I said,
no superiority here please. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face=Arial><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face=Arial><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:Arial'>> particularly if that means more multi-screen screeds.
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face=Arial><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face=Arial><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:Arial'>After you say, yes, I agree with McTim, when he proposes launching
official ‘inappropriate list behavior’ proceedings against me, and
add that I am seriously distorting what someone said on the list, you expect
that I should not explain myself in some detail but simple run away and hide
since ‘you have spoken’ and that should be it. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face=Arial><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face=Arial><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:Arial'>And now for some personal epithets/ attacks you used against
me and my responses to them in terms of what, in that case, I may have to say
about you, (because if you just let it be, such behavior is so dominantly established,
it only grows)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face=Arial><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:Arial'>> …dipping into the gutter…<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face=Arial><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face=Arial><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:Arial'>“insufferable snobbery”<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face=Arial><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face=Arial><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:Arial'>> … belligerent fight picking<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face=Arial><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face=Arial><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:Arial'>“systemic in-group exclusionary behavior”<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face=Arial><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face=Arial><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:Arial'>Your serve, please. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face=Arial><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:Arial'>Since Avri has professed eagerness to learn Hindi idioms, I can
start with you who uses US political history for ‘labeling’ me –
they say over here ‘before you sit on a cot you should swipe under it
with a stick to make sure there is not anything under it’. You may think
about paying attention to this. <i><span style='font-style:italic'><o:p></o:p></span></i></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face=Arial><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face=Arial><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:Arial'>Parminder <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face=Arial><span style='font-size:13.5pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> William Drake [mailto:william.drake@graduateinstitute.ch]
<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, August 06, 2008
4:55 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Singh, Parminder; McTim;
Governance<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [process] Re:
[governance] USG on ICANN - no movement here</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=4 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Arial'>Parminder,<br>
<br>
I clearly was referring to John’s point that <br>
<br>
><font color="#333333"><span style='color:#333333'>The US DOC has always
made it crystal clear that they <br>
>will never under any plausible conditions relinquish their <br>
>authority over the DNS root and, hence, over ICANN. <br>
>This policy has never changed, and their recent note <br>
>contains no surprises to anyone who's been paying<br>
>attention.<br>
</span></font><br>
That was unmistakably the main thrust of my message. I don’t happen
to agree with him that ICANN needs DOJ’s ‘adult supervision,’
gave no indication that I did, and have said plenty of things to the contrary
on this list and elsewhere over the past five years, in plain view of you.
Please do not attribute views to me that are not mine in order to score
cheap rhetorical points. <br>
<br>
I also noted that it’s not appropriate for the coordinator to be
attacking people and hurling around ideological labels. I stand by that,
you are not just any subscriber to the list, you’re the caucus
coordinator so belligerent fight picking is unhelpful. <br>
<br>
BTW, when people like John talk about ICANN needing ‘adult
supervision,’ they are talking about ICANN---the board, et al---needing
oversight. It may not be the form of oversight you or I favor, but
that’s a legitimate and often expressed view that can be disputed on the
merits without dipping into the gutter. In contrast, I didn’t hear
him saying that other countries are juvenile, so characterizing the point as
patronizing and neo-imperialist seems a tad misplaced. Sorry to hear it brings
blood to your head, particularly if that means more multi-screen screeds.
Or we could agree to disagree and move on to something more useful.<br>
<br>
Bill<br>
<br>
<br>
On 8/6/08 11:35 AM, "Parminder" <parminder@itforchange.net>
wrote:</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=4 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Arial'><br>
>can only help this caucus come to an informed<br>
> perspective on this issue, and should not draw personal attacks (don't<br>
> shoot the messenger just because you don't like the message). (Mctim)<br>
<br>
McTim (and Bill)<br>
<br>
So, you claim John was merely, without sympathy, conveying the existing<br>
situation of ICANN oversight. (And Bill you support it - saying, I<br>
"seriously distorted what was actually said")<br>
<br>
Some quotes from John's email (full email enclosed, for anyone to check<br>
integrity of these quotes to the full text)<br>
<br>
"....ICANN desperately needs the DOC's adult supervision" (John)<br>
<br>
I read in the above a clear_acceptance_and_endorsement-of_the_situation that<br>
the US should continue to unilaterally supervise/ control the technical body<br>
that controls (to the extent, and in ways, we all know) the crucial global<br>
resource, the Internet. <br>
<br>
<br>
"There has certainly been feverish wishful thinking inside and outside of<br>
ICANN imagining that somehow ICANN and the root will float free, but it<br>
ain't going to happen." (John)<br>
<br>
"So do what you want to try to set up Internet governance processes, but<br>
don't waste your time imagining that the DOC will go away." (John)<br>
<br>
The above two quotes speak with clear 'derision' about the effort of all<br>
those who seek change in the situation of ICANN's oversight. Such derision<br>
does NOT come with helpless acceptance of a given 'unchangeable' reality, it<br>
comes when one activity supports that 'reality'. <br>
<br>
And John did not say this stuff only once, he repeated the need for US's<br>
'adult supervision' when Milton wrote<br>
<br>
>Wow, John,<br>
>It's ok to remind us that the US position has not changed, but I am <br>
>wondering why you feel the need to construct weak and biased apologia <br>
>for US control. (Milton)<br>
<br>
John replied with<br>
<br>
>if you don't find their need for adult supervision egregiously obvious, I<br>
>doubt I can explain it.<br>
<br>
So, US supervision is 'adult' and (by contrast) that of other countries<br>
combined will be 'juvenile'!! Nothing can be more clearly partronising and<br>
(I consciously repeat) neo-imperialist than that. <br>
<br>
You guys may be immune to such derogatory political allusions, but I am not.<br>
And most people I work with are not. Such a reference, especially among<br>
people in countries with a colonial past, immediately brings a bit of blood<br>
to ones head. <br>
<br>
Anyways, now we can examine the word I used - "neo-imperialist", and
whether<br>
it was appropriate.<br>
<br>
The first entry on Google search has this to say "Neo-imperialism refers
to<br>
the dominance of some nations over others by means of unequal conditions of<br>
economic exchange." And then later "Neo-imperialism is a very general
way to<br>
view many of the new issues that are developing and will develop as our<br>
world grows smaller due to more effective communication and contact between<br>
foreign nations."<br>
<br>
If use of terms of economic exchange for domination is neo-imperialism,<br>
sitting over the central and one of the most important resources of the<br>
world - the Internet - and plainly refusing to be democratic and<br>
participative with the global community in its governance is extreme<br>
neo-imperialism (we all know that it gives geo-political advantages, does<br>
any one doubt that). <br>
<br>
And someone who supports such unilateral control by one country, and derides<br>
those who seek change, both_of_which_John_clearly_did, (does he or you deny<br>
that) clearly professes neo-imperialist ideology (especially when one is the<br>
citizen/ resident of that controlling country). That's the meaning of the<br>
term. It has been created for this use, not to be in the sociology<br>
dictionaries alone. And so I used it. It is not name-calling, in that<br>
socially-inappropriate sense. It is a current socio-political description of<br>
normal use. I agree it is not normally flattering, but then one has to<br>
defend against it on facts, and not mere social-inappropriateness. <br>
<br>
I will have no hesitation, in fact consider it my duty as a social activist,<br>
to use the term again in similar circumstances. <br>
<br>
And now if you, McTim and Bill, wants to make apologies for John and<br>
corresponding attacks on me, that is your personal and political choice. No<br>
problems for me, good luck.<br>
<br>
And BTW if this is name-calling etc and inappropriate behavior on the list<br>
what was it about calling my acts repeatedly as being of the nature of<br>
'Spartacus Youth League'. Is it then not name calling? Bill, you said it<br>
first, and McTim has made a habit of using it tauntingly on the list.<br>
<br>
(Should I bring our all expressions you have used on the list at various<br>
times in different exchanges with members so that we can decide what is<br>
appropriate and what not.)<br>
<br>
So, my friends, please give up this righteousness and superiority. This is<br>
all our about our personal, and I think much more, about our political<br>
proclivities. You have a right to be closer to whatever position you want<br>
to. Just don't try unnecessary moral righteousness. <br>
<br>
Parminder <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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