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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Suresh<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>>That ICANN seeks
out people of a technical persuasion is mostly self selection. If civil
society goes in, and provides reasoned, cogent – and apolitical – >arguments,
there’s no reason why these cant be taken forward. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I think we could be closing in to understand
our differences, though without resolving them. You said at ICANN one needs to make
apolitical arguments !! But I and my organization are very clear that we are
into political work. I wish mostly to make political arguments… And you
do say that such arguments will not be given attention in ICANN forums. And,
well, about ‘reasoned and cogent argument’ I m not sure who will
judge my comments for these qualities, and using what parameters. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Now, we must understand that our interest
is in the political aspects of ICANN functioning, not its narrowly technical aspects.
To the extent that ICANN seeks larger political base – legitimacy of representing
the interests of a larger set of constituencies – its outreach is (or is
supposed to be) a political matter. On the other hand, it can also be seeking a
larger outreach of technical advice and inputs in which case the outreach is
more of an IETF kind of loose networking. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>It will do both sides – the political
and the technical – a lot of good if they understand and appreciate the
difference well. As much as IETF will like to keep its deliberation ‘apolitical’
and consisting of reasoned and cogent arguments as per the normal expectations
of a scientific/ technical community, IGF, and I dare say IGC (as an
self-professed advocacy group) will like to keep the primacy of the
socio-political over technical in its functioning… Such specialization
helps both sides – even if the distinction is to a good extent
conceptual. Those who are technical people are as much entitled to political
views as anyone else – but only as much, even if the area has more technical
content than other areas – and it will be very useful if they can appreciate
the difference between giving a political input and a technical one.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Some people naively confuse the two –
and other people, and organizations – when it serves their political interest
– do it deliberately. ICANN must separate the two aspects of its
functioning – till such time the political/ public policy part is taken
away from it by putting it under the oversight of an appropriate global public
policy body or system. The latter is something ICANN resists tooth and nail, on
the other hand, it wont itself accept the largely political nature of its
outreach and stakeholder involvement activity and make due processes for it.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>And so if CS and people do not ‘</span></font><font
size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:
Calibri;color:#1F497D'>speak the same language’ </span></font><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>as ICAAN does, in the task of political legitimization that ICANN
seeks it is the job of the ICANN to present issues in people’s and CS’s
language and not the other way around. As I said the technical deliberations are
a different ballgame. </span></font><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>I know that some amount of technical overview knowledge is still
required, and be assured that we how seek political participation do have that.
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>> disconnect,
this gap, that needs to be bridged first.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Now, if we are able to develop a common
understanding of the nature of the ‘gap’ we can try to do something
to bridge it. The offer of IGF as the ideal forum for ICANN for political outreach,
stakeholder involvement and seeking wider legitimacy has been made precisely
for that purpose. Political outreach, and I know I am repeating this, is not made
on the terms of the institution that seeks political involvement, but on the
terms of wider constituencies whose involvement is sought. These are simple political
lessons. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Parminder <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Suresh
Ramasubramanian [mailto:suresh@hserus.net] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, February 06, 2008
8:38 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> governance@lists.cpsr.org;
'Parminder'; 'Milton L Mueller'; 'Jeremy Malcolm'<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE: [governance] Re:
[IGP-ANNOUNCE] IGP Alert: Reforming ICANN Oversight: A Historic Opportunity</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>McTim’s point
about the IGF and handing over control to it should be very well taken in that
case. GAC’s increased involvement certainly didn’t originate
within ICANN – it originated in the governments that form GAC.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>There is no shortage
of ways civ soc can go into ICANN .. industry led because industry seems to be
the single largest participating constituency in ICANN. There is a lot
that civil society can, and must, do within ICANN too.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>That ICANN seeks out
people of a technical persuasion is mostly self selection. If civil
society goes in, and provides reasoned, cogent – and apolitical –
arguments, there’s no reason why these cant be taken forward. The
problem so far is that not all civil society people understand ICANN, or the
issues that ICANN governs – or at least, may not speak the same language.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>It is this
disconnect, this gap, that needs to be bridged first.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>
suresh<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Parminder
[mailto:parminder@itforchange.net] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, February 06, 2008
3:56 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> governance@lists.cpsr.org;
'Suresh Ramasubramanian'; 'Milton L Mueller'; 'Jeremy Malcolm'<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE: [governance] Re:
[IGP-ANNOUNCE] IGP Alert: Reforming ICANN Oversight: A Historic Opportunity<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Suresh<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I think we broadly agree the present DoC
supervision is something that should not carry on, and we should try to do some
thing to change the situation. The difference of view is about where this
battle should be waged.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>>You need to
lobby DoC, and you need to lobby within ICANN. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The present effort under discussion is
aimed at the DoC. So it is as per what you advise. And when you ask DoC to give
up supervision it is always wise to also say give it up to whom or what…
and next to a ICANN floating free from any political accountability (which is
not acceptable to us) the soft oversight by IGF looks like an constructive
suggestion. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>As for lobbying within ICANN, a couple of
issues.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>You may not be right to say that whatever
changes in or about ICANN will come from within ICANN. You are under-estimating
the amount of increase of power of GAC in ICANN, for instance, and where from
these ‘changes’ arose, what factors caused them. They aren’t
from within ICANN. Though ICANN has gone down the path of some reforms lately
(also often triggered, if indirectly, by forces outside it) if one seeks
structural changes in ICANN one cant just rely on persuasive forces aimed at
structures of ICANN itself. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Now to explain briefly why do we seek
structural and not merely evolutionary changes. The new CEO rightly described
ICANN during the Rio meeting as an industry-led governance system. Well, I
don’t like industry based governance systems. Not for a phenomenon that
is increasingly getting under the skin of almost every social institution, and
structurally transforming them. For me it is a close equivalent to a
pharma-industry led global health policy systems. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>ICANN likes to tell everyone that it does only
technical coordination function. Now, if it does only that I have no interest
in participating and influencing its function. But all the political
contestations around it prove that its functions have great – present or
future – political implications. So, I cant participate in the so called
stakeholder out-reach systems of an organization that says that it does only
technical functions and correspondingly its outreach systems also mostly seek
out people of technical persuasions (the connection, to that extent, is obvious
and fair). <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Internet is a big social phenomenon with
stakeholders in all sectors, and they should be equally enabled to participate
– ICANN system does not reach out to them. It has constructed a somewhat
dubious category of Internet users which too it not what it is able to reach
out to. And it is very comfortable to reach out a largely technical
community, which does not challenge its structural basis, and have issues with
it that are relatively peripheral and contestations stays in these areas.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Do you think the largely technical
community that interacts through ICANN build stakeholder structures represent
the width of the social constituencies that are implicated in IG today –
which is basically all people of the world. Can you point to anyone who is not
directly or indirectly implicated by the structural changes caused by the
Internet – which changes themselves depend on how the basic internet
platform develops? What are the structures of participation of these people?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>And in this context, that I have drawn
above, where is the legitimacy of an continued industry-led governance system
– I have deep ideological problems with this neo-liberalization of every
social system, governance in this case - or even a technical community
dominated governance system, whose viewpoints are valid, but represent a very
small portion of the range of stakeholders implicated. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>A group of technical community members in
their recent proposal (<a
href="http://intgovforum.org/forum/index.php?topic=419.0">http://intgovforum.org/forum/index.php?topic=419.0</a>)
for MAG renewal give a useful guideline “"AG members should be
chosen on the basis of how large and diverse a community they connect to (which
is different than "represent")." One can try and analyze how big
and diverse communities do the present ICANN out-reach / participation
structures connect to. I don’t see ICANN score well at all on this.
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I don’t think I would have persuaded
you to my viewpoint, but you may perhaps understand a little better. It is not
as simple as you say, in response to Jeanette’s email<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New"'>>when there is an existing structure and an
existing path to change / alter governance processes, trying to create a
>whole new path isnt going to be productive.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Parminder <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Suresh
Ramasubramanian [mailto:suresh@hserus.net] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, February 06, 2008
5:18 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> governance@lists.cpsr.org;
'Parminder'; 'Milton L Mueller'; 'Jeremy Malcolm'<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE: [governance] Re:
[IGP-ANNOUNCE] IGP Alert: Reforming ICANN Oversight: A Historic Opportunity</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Parminder, <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>I’m simply
being realistic here. Do we expend all the energy of this group tilting
at a windmill that isn’t going to budge all that fast? And gets
moved by a completely different set of winds (aka a different set of
stakeholder communities that wield influence there)?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>I’m an Indian,
and you raised the question of the freedom struggle. A whole lot of
people tried to beat the british using armed force – petty rulers, people
who shot a magistrate here, threw a bomb there etc .. did that help? It
was only when the Indian equivalent of civil society organized together into a
single party, with visible leaders and consensus (in this case, the Indian
National Congress) and got into the very system the British operated to govern
the country.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>In other words, you
wont be able to change this from outside, and won’t be able to change
this by operating within the IGF, or submitting petitions and releasing
position papers. You need to lobby DoC, and you need to lobby within
ICANN. Whatever change will take place in ICANN, whatever decisions on
ICANN’s governance get taken, will come from within ICANN and from within
DoC – you are not going to find it easy or possible to wrest control
from DoC and reassign it to IGF.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>ICANN is also,
e&oe DoC oversight, a largely open and stakeholder driven process.
There, just like IGF and elsewhere, those stakeholders who have enough stake in
ICANN to invest time, people and money to participate actively in it get their
views pushed forward ahead of civ soc views. It doesn’t help that
civ soc has pitifully inadequate representation there.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>In other words,
talking wont help. Position papers, PhD theses etc wont help
either. And nor will all the discussion help if it goes on in the
IGF. Taking this battle into ICANN and into lobbying DoC is what is
going to help.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>
suresh<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Parminder
[mailto:parminder@itforchange.net] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, February 06, 2008
12:38 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> 'Suresh Ramasubramanian';
governance@lists.cpsr.org; 'Milton L Mueller'; 'Jeremy Malcolm'<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE: [governance] Re:
[IGP-ANNOUNCE] IGP Alert: Reforming ICANN Oversight: A Historic Opportunity<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Suresh<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=msolistparagraph style='margin-left:0in'><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>></span></font><font
size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:
Calibri;color:#1F497D'> There’s no meaningful consensus likely to be
achieved, especially with politically charged proposals<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>But before we explore what CAN happen, the
issue is what are OUR political views on this matter. Which way WE want it to
go. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=msolistparagraph style='margin-left:0in'><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>> </span></font><font
size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:
Calibri;color:#1F497D'>DoC isn’t going to give up oversight, no matter
what kind of pipe dream proposals emanate from IGF, IGP etc<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The prior issue still remains whether you/
we are a part of that ‘pipe-dream’ or not. Are you happy with
DoC’s oversight ? Lets state our political priorities upfront rather than
put up the smokescreen of what may or may not ‘practically’ happen.
(That’s often the obvious viewpoint/ strategy of those happy with the
status quo.) And if we don’t have any political views on this matter at
all let that be stated too…<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Civil society advocacy is having political
views and fighting for them… do you think developed countries are going
to increase development aid to close to 1 percent of their GDP, are they going
to agree to development-friendly trade policy, will they allow public domain to
proliferate in face of IP-fueled economic growth plans, would they accept disproportionate
(fairly so) emission control norms for
themselves………………..<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>So, why is civil society ever even
bothering with these issue or pipe dreams…. You are an Indian, what would
you have thought of all efforts of freedom fighters in early decades of the
last century… pipe dreams?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>So before we speak about what may happen
lets know what do you/ we want…. And if we just don’t bother say
that as well.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>When you speak of ‘</span></font><font
size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:
Calibri;color:#1F497D'>extraordinarily vocal sections of civ soc’ </span></font><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>I do not know</span></font><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>whom do you speak of and why would you want them to be less vocal.
I thought IGC tries to provide space and possibilities for a greater voice for
civil society. Or do you mean ONLY some sections of CS are
‘extra-ordinarily’ vocal, in that case which are these sections of
the CS whose voice you think gets suppressed in the process, and which you may
want to promote. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>So, in the context of the present thread
of discussion, it is isn’t enough to make the observation ‘there
isn’t any IGF’. We need also to state if we really want any IGF as
such, and if so what IGF. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Parminder <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
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face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
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</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Suresh
Ramasubramanian [mailto:suresh@hserus.net] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, February 06, 2008
4:39 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> governance@lists.cpsr.org;
'Parminder'; 'Milton L Mueller'; 'Jeremy Malcolm'<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE: [governance] Re:
[IGP-ANNOUNCE] IGP Alert: Reforming ICANN Oversight: A Historic Opportunity</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>There isn’t
any “IGF” as such – only some extraordinarily vocal sections
of civ soc, some sections of government (which may be a bit different, in some
cases, from the GAC regulars), some industry etc. Yes there’d be a
substantial cross section of these that are active in ICANN, but ..<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=msolistparagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><font
size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:
Calibri;color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>1.<font size=1
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>There’s
no meaningful consensus likely to be achieved, especially with politically
charged proposals<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=msolistparagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><font
size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:
Calibri;color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>2.<font size=1
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font size=2 color="#1f497d"
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>DoC
isn’t going to give up oversight, no matter what kind of pipe dream
proposals emanate from IGF, IGP etc<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Parminder
[mailto:parminder@itforchange.net] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, February 06, 2008
12:03 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> governance@lists.cpsr.org;
'Milton L Mueller'; 'Jeremy Malcolm'<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE: [governance] Re:
[IGP-ANNOUNCE] IGP Alert: Reforming ICANN Oversight: A Historic Opportunity<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>So
which is this IGF that wont like an ICANN accountable to it.... and why ?????<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>This is a set of probing
questions. And if Jeremy's observation be true, would it not signify a captured
institution. I am not jumping to any conclusions (as yet) but drawing
implications from some elements of this discussion, which probably will provoke
more debate in this important area.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>Parminder <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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