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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Parminder, <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I’m simply being realistic here. Do we expend all
the energy of this group tilting at a windmill that isn’t going to budge
all that fast? And gets moved by a completely different set of winds (aka
a different set of stakeholder communities that wield influence there)?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I’m an Indian, and you raised the question of the freedom
struggle. A whole lot of people tried to beat the british using armed
force – petty rulers, people who shot a magistrate here, threw a bomb
there etc .. did that help? It was only when the Indian equivalent of
civil society organized together into a single party, with visible leaders and
consensus (in this case, the Indian National Congress) and got into the very
system the British operated to govern the country.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>In other words, you wont be able to change this from outside,
and won’t be able to change this by operating within the IGF, or
submitting petitions and releasing position papers. You need to lobby
DoC, and you need to lobby within ICANN. Whatever change will take place
in ICANN, whatever decisions on ICANN’s governance get taken, will come
from within ICANN and from within DoC – you are not going to find
it easy or possible to wrest control from DoC and reassign it to IGF.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>ICANN is also, e&oe DoC oversight, a largely open and
stakeholder driven process. There, just like IGF and elsewhere, those
stakeholders who have enough stake in ICANN to invest time, people and money to
participate actively in it get their views pushed forward ahead of civ soc
views. It doesn’t help that civ soc has pitifully inadequate
representation there.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>In other words, talking wont help. Position papers, PhD
theses etc wont help either. And nor will all the discussion help if it
goes on in the IGF. Taking this battle into ICANN and into lobbying DoC is
what is going to help.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> suresh<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Parminder
[mailto:parminder@itforchange.net] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 06, 2008 12:38 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Suresh Ramasubramanian'; governance@lists.cpsr.org; 'Milton L
Mueller'; 'Jeremy Malcolm'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [governance] Re: [IGP-ANNOUNCE] IGP Alert: Reforming ICANN
Oversight: A Historic Opportunity<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Suresh<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>></span><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> There’s no
meaningful consensus likely to be achieved, especially with politically charged
proposals<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>But before we explore what CAN happen, the issue is what are OUR
political views on this matter. Which way WE want it to go. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='margin-left:0in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>> </span><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>DoC
isn’t going to give up oversight, no matter what kind of pipe dream
proposals emanate from IGF, IGP etc<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>The prior issue still remains whether you/ we are a part of that
‘pipe-dream’ or not. Are you happy with DoC’s oversight ?
Lets state our political priorities upfront rather than put up the smokescreen
of what may or may not ‘practically’ happen. (That’s often
the obvious viewpoint/ strategy of those happy with the status quo.) And if we
don’t have any political views on this matter at all let that be stated
too…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Civil society advocacy is having political views and fighting for
them… do you think developed countries are going to increase development
aid to close to 1 percent of their GDP, are they going to agree to
development-friendly trade policy, will they allow public domain to proliferate
in face of IP-fueled economic growth plans, would they accept disproportionate
(fairly so) emission control norms for themselves………………..<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>So, why is civil society ever even bothering with these issue or
pipe dreams…. You are an Indian, what would you have thought of all
efforts of freedom fighters in early decades of the last century… pipe
dreams?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>So before we speak about what may happen lets know what do you/ we
want…. And if we just don’t bother say that as well.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>When you speak of ‘</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>extraordinarily vocal
sections of civ soc’ </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>I do not know</span><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>whom do
you speak of and why would you want them to be less vocal. I thought IGC tries
to provide space and possibilities for a greater voice for civil society. Or do
you mean ONLY some sections of CS are ‘extra-ordinarily’ vocal, in
that case which are these sections of the CS whose voice you think gets
suppressed in the process, and which you may want to promote. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>So, in the context of the present thread of discussion, it is
isn’t enough to make the observation ‘there isn’t any
IGF’. We need also to state if we really want any IGF as such, and if so
what IGF. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Parminder <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Suresh
Ramasubramanian [mailto:suresh@hserus.net] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 06, 2008 4:39 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> governance@lists.cpsr.org; 'Parminder'; 'Milton L Mueller'; 'Jeremy
Malcolm'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [governance] Re: [IGP-ANNOUNCE] IGP Alert: Reforming ICANN
Oversight: A Historic Opportunity</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>There isn’t any “IGF” as such – only
some extraordinarily vocal sections of civ soc, some sections of government
(which may be a bit different, in some cases, from the GAC regulars), some
industry etc. Yes there’d be a substantial cross section of these
that are active in ICANN, but ..<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>1.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>There’s no meaningful consensus likely to be achieved,
especially with politically charged proposals<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>2.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>DoC isn’t going to give up oversight, no matter what kind
of pipe dream proposals emanate from IGF, IGP etc<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Parminder [mailto:parminder@itforchange.net]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 06, 2008 12:03 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> governance@lists.cpsr.org; 'Milton L Mueller'; 'Jeremy Malcolm'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [governance] Re: [IGP-ANNOUNCE] IGP Alert: Reforming ICANN
Oversight: A Historic Opportunity<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>So which is this IGF that wont like an
ICANN accountable to it.... and why ?????<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>This
is a set of probing questions. And if Jeremy's observation be true, would it
not signify a captured institution. I am not jumping to any conclusions (as
yet) but drawing implications from some elements of this discussion, which
probably will provoke more debate in this important area.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Parminder
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
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