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<title>RE: [governance] Re: IG questions that are not ICANN [was:</title>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>George:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Interpol can simply facilitate
international cooperation among law enforcement agencies. The more interesting
questions revolve around who decides what the laws and policies are at the
global level when national laws and jurisdictional fragmentation are inadequate
to the task of governing the global internet. Interpol can’t do that. ITU
(sort of) can, but (perhaps) would do it badly. OECD aspires to be a
norm-setter but is a club that doesn’t include the world and is (like
ITU) exclusively inter-governmental. So I’d suggest that we need to build
on existing internet operational communities and add a layer of more
participatory and (dare I say it) liberal-democratic policy making and
institutional development.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>--M<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> George Sadowsky
[mailto:george.sadowsky@attglobal.net] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Sunday, December 02, 2007
9:14 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Suresh Ramasubramanian; <st1:PersonName
w:st="on">governance@lists.cpsr.org</st1:PersonName>; 'Alejandro Pisanty'; '<st1:PersonName
w:st="on">Jacqueline A. Morris</st1:PersonName>'<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> 'Ian Peter'<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE: [governance] Re: IG
questions that are not ICANN [was: Irony]</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Suresh,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Thank you very much. This is quite interesting.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>It's worth listening to Ron Noble's interview. He is the head of
Interpol. He pleads emotionally, to the point of breaking down and crying, for
governments to understand that he has a billion dollar program, not a million
dollar program. He cites budgets of comparable international institutions
and shows what a pittance Interpol gets compared to them.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>If the world believes (whatever that means) that Interpol is part of
the solution against cybercrime and not part of the problem. it is
certainly not putting its money where its mouth is.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Is there any evidence that Interpol is not a worthwhile
investment? I haven't seen any.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>George<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>At 8:38 PM +0700 12/2/07, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite cite>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Well, there is a multitude of organizations.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite cite>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite cite>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>ITU is the UN agency that handles WSIS action line C5 - which covers cybersecurity<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite cite>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite cite>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Interpol certainly does quite a lot on coordinating between law
enforcement agencies on cybercrime issues. In fact, see this interview
with their secretary general Ronald Noble - on ABC 60 minutes.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite cite>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite cite>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><a
href="http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3906861&cl=5007247&ch=4227541&src=news">http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3906861&cl=5007247&ch=4227541&src=news</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite cite>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite cite>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>A lot of additional cooperation also goes on through MLATs - bilateral
"mutual legal assistance treaties" between national police agencies
(such as the US DoJ).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite cite>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite cite>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Other organizations that do work to some extent in this area are ENISA
(http://enisa.europa.eu) and the CoE (through their convention on
cybercrime, and a network of 24x7 hotline PoCs that works with / extends the
G8's similar hotline). The international organizations that deal
specifically with this are more than capable.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite cite>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite cite>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Then, there's international cooperation on child porn - public private,
this one - <a href="http://www.virtualglobaltaskforce.com">http://www.virtualglobaltaskforce.com</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite cite>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite cite>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>As I said though, several individual countries' law enforcement
agencies may range all the way down the spectrum from "don't know" to
"don't care". And individual countries may not have
extradiation treaties as well .. so that issues of rather more significance
than cybercrime (such as seeking the arrest of someone who put plutonium in a
guy's sushi not too long back) may run into these very same issues.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite cite>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite cite>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>
srs<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite cite>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite cite>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite cite>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b> George
Sadowsky [mailto:george.sadowsky@attglobal.net]<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Sunday, December 02, 2007
8:24 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">governance@lists.cpsr.org</st1:PersonName>;
Alejandro Pisanty; <st1:PersonName w:st="on">Jacqueline A. Morris</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> 'Ian Peter'; 'Suresh
Ramasubramanian'<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE: [governance] Re: IG
questions that are not ICANN [was: Irony]<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite cite>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite cite>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>So where is the international organization that claims (cyber)crime as
its target? IMHO the obvious target is Interpol. Yet I don't see
strong evidence of Interpol's involvement in cybercrime. why not?
Some possible reasons:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite cite>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>(1) It's happening, but I don't see it because I'm not looking in the
right places<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>(2) It's happening, but purposely being kept secret for the purposes of
effective operations<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>(3) It's not happening because Interpol doesn't see it as a high
priority or doesn't see it as a part of its mandate<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>(4) It's not happening because Interpol doesn't have the resources to
address the issue effectively -- technical, legal, or financial.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>(5) None of the above.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite cite>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Seriously, I would like to understand if our existing international
organizations are capable or could be made capable of really assisting in this
area, or not. This would give us some evidence regarding in which
directions it would be most effective to proceed.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite cite>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite cite>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>What do we collectively know about Interpol, and possibly other similar
organizations that could provide a basis for a concerted attack on cybercrime?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite cite>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite cite>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite cite>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite cite>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>George<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite cite>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite cite>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite cite>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite cite>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite cite>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>At 2:02 AM +0000 12/2/07, Alejandro Pisanty wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Hi,<br>
<br>
on the strand on cybercrime:<br>
<br>
a useful way to approach this would be to make a quick list of stakeholders
(the four WSIS stakeholder groups, then a more fine-grained segmentation of
these), and their present and possible future roles.<br>
<br>
Thus, you can recognize governments as you are already doing. Governments in
many countries (certainly the once you are mentioning here) have three main
branches, executive, legislative, and judiciary. Each plays or can play a
vital, differentiated role. Then e.g. within the executive you have
differentiated functions - crime prosecution is in the executive in many
countries, crime prevention, education, telecoms regulator (or other setting
and policing rules for ISP operation), and so on.<br>
<br>
The cooperation described in previous emails in this strand is mainly among
law-enforcement agencies, which aid each other cross-border in investigating
crimes and prosecuting criminals.<br>
<br>
Not much of this can be done with cooperation form other parts of the
governments. It is well known that a person that has committed a crime under
the laws of country A but is in country B cannot be captured in country B and
lawfully extradited to country A unless his actions are also a crime in country
B. And then of course you have to have compatible rules for evidence, country A
has to recognize the evidence obtained in country B, the rules for the control
of the custody of the chain of evidence in country B have to satisfy country A,
and so on.<br>
<br>
Lawyers and other experts will be happy to dwell in the details.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>The business (what we call the private sector outside the <st1:country-region
w:st="on">US</st1:country-region> and <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">UK</st1:place></st1:country-region>) to business cooperation is
often easier to meet. Phishing is recognized by banks in most countries, and
though competition issues (banks compete with each other by being safer, among
other factors) may make them want to not cooperate, once the environment is
toxic enough they will not only cooperate with each other in-country but also
cross-border. This gets complicated by the huge level of consolidation among
banks that exists transnationally.<br>
<br>
Other private-sector victims or co-victims to cybercrime (strictly speaking the
bank is not the victim of phishing; the client is the victim; so I use
"co-victim" because banks are shouldering some of the burden for many
reasons) such as small and medium enterprises which are swindled by criminals
(e.g. in fake purchases) may find it more difficult to cooperate with their
peers cross-border directly, preferring their governments to act on their
behalf instead, unless they are very cyber-savvy.<br>
<br>
(And, ah, many of us are of the opinion that there is actually no cybercrime,
only crime committed by cyber means.)<br>
<br>
I'll stop here for a moment and ask, what is the role of civil society in this
picture? (exercise left to the readers.)<br>
<br>
Yours,<br>
<br>
Alejandro Pisanty<br>
<br>
<br>
. . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . .<br>
Dr. Alejandro Pisanty<br>
Director General de Servicios de Computo Academico<br>
UNAM, Universidad Nacional Autonoma de Mexico<br>
Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Mexico</st1:place></st1:country-region>
DF Mexico<br>
Tel. (+52-55) 5622-8541, 5622-8542 Fax 5622-8540<br>
http://www.dgsca.unam.mx<br>
*<br>
---->> Unete a ISOC <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Mexico</st1:place></st1:country-region>,
www.isoc.org<br>
Participa en ICANN, www.icann.org<br>
. . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . .<br>
<br>
<br>
On Sat, 1 Dec 2007, <st1:PersonName w:st="on">Jacqueline A. Morris</st1:PersonName>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 21:34:54 -0400<br>
From: <st1:PersonName w:st="on">Jacqueline A. Morris</st1:PersonName>
<jam@jacquelinemorris.com><br>
Reply-To: <st1:PersonName w:st="on">governance@lists.cpsr.org</st1:PersonName>,<br>
<st1:PersonName w:st="on">Jacqueline A. Morris</st1:PersonName>
<jam@jacquelinemorris.com><br>
To: <st1:PersonName w:st="on">governance@lists.cpsr.org</st1:PersonName>, 'Ian
Peter' <ian.peter@ianpeter.com>,<br>
'Suresh Ramasubramanian' <suresh@hserus.net><br>
Subject: RE: [governance] Re: IG questions that are not ICANN [was: Irony]<br>
<br>
There is some cross-boundary cooperation, but it isn't easy. There are some<br>
bilateral agreements (for example between <st1:country-region w:st="on">Trinidad
and Tobago</st1:country-region> and the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">UK</st1:place></st1:country-region> and<br>
also with the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">US</st1:place></st1:country-region>
) that allow for co-ordination and cooperation in certain<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>instances, but some in the local Police complain that the processes are<br>
unwieldy.<br>
I do agree that there needs to be more than simple government to government<br>
cooperation. But governments are vital, in that they are the ones who can<br>
sign agreements that are binding, they can amend laws that allow for<br>
cooperation (and that is important with regard to evidence, with regard to<br>
what is allowed in different jurisdictions, such as methods of data<br>
gathering).<br>
Jacqueline<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Ian Peter [mailto:ian.peter@ianpeter.com]<br>
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 23:03<br>
To: <st1:PersonName w:st="on">governance@lists.cpsr.org</st1:PersonName>;
'Suresh Ramasubramanian'<br>
Subject: RE: [governance] Re: IG questions that are not ICANN [was:<br>
Irony]<br>
<br>
Nice concept Suresh, but at <st1:place w:st="on">Rio</st1:place> a number of
govt reps complained at the<br>
almost total lack of international co-operation in this area and the<br>
ineffectiveness of current efforts because there is no way to get<br>
cross-boundary co-operation currently.<br>
<br>
That's a structural problem IMHO. And one not likely to be solved<br>
solely by<br>
governments co-operating among themselves. In addition technical<br>
co-operation is necessary as they readily admit - that takes two forms<br>
at<br>
least which I outlined. Finally the public policy issues are<br>
substantial of<br>
course.<br>
.<br>
<br>
Ian Peter<br>
Ian Peter and Associates Pty Ltd<br>
PO Box <st1:address w:st="on"><st1:Street w:st="on">10670 Adelaide St</st1:Street>
<st1:City w:st="on">Brisbane</st1:City></st1:address> 4000<br>
<st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Australia</st1:place></st1:country-region><br>
Tel (+614) 1966 7772 or (+612) 6687 0773<br>
www.ianpeter.com<br>
www.internetmark2.org<br>
www.nethistory.info<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Suresh Ramasubramanian [mailto:suresh@hserus.net]<br>
Sent: 01 December 2007 14:00<br>
To: <st1:PersonName w:st="on">governance@lists.cpsr.org</st1:PersonName>; Ian
Peter<br>
Cc: 'Alejandro Pisanty'; '<st1:PersonName w:st="on">Milton L Mueller</st1:PersonName>'<br>
Subject: Re: [governance] Re: IG questions that are not ICANN [was:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Irony]<br>
<br>
Ian Peter [01/12/07 13:45 +1100]:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>A structure for dealing with cybercrime would have the following<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>inputs<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>1. Governmental<br>
2. Industry players (carriers, ISPs, etc)<br>
3. Technical innovators and standards groups<br>
4. Public interest groups<br>
Each would need representation on a structure dealing with this issue.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
Actually, the focus would not be on "governance" - it would be on<br>
interoperability and cooperation across "stakeholder communities" (or<br>
stakeholder silos, as I've heard them called .. civ soc talking to<br>
other<br>
civ soc, agency talking to agency etc)<br>
<br>
Take a look at these three - they actually do a lot of what you ask<br>
for.<br>
<br>
CoE convention on cybercrime -<br>
http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/EN/Treaties/Html/185.htm<br>
<br>
ITU botnet project - again, taking these concepts you cite and applying<br>
them practically, instead of as a thought experiment -<br>
http://www.itu.int/ITU-D/cyb/cybersecurity/projects/botnet.html<br>
http://www.itu.int/ITU-D/cyb/cybersecurity/docs/itu-botnet-mitigation-<br>
toolki<br>
t-background.pdf<br>
<br>
And then this - a "self assessment" document to help a country assess<br>
how<br>
ready it is to deal with cybersecurity.<br>
http://www.itu.int/ITU-D/cyb/cybersecurity/projects/readiness.html<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Effective action would require the consent and involvement of each<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>group<br>
<br>
At an international level? What you would get at that level is again<br>
coordination and cooperation at a broad level, and awareness of each<br>
others<br>
initiatives. It is not like (say) governing a swiss canton where all<br>
the<br>
citizens can get together to decide where to build the next public<br>
toilet<br>
or how much to spend to improve a local park.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> srs<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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