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<title>RE: [governance] Re: IG questions that are not ICANN [was:</title>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>You would not see Interpol’s involvement. Nor
would your average civ soc igovernance type person who has a much broader
interest in access / ICT, ICANN governance etc issues rather than being focused
on cybercrime. Even then, you would have to look hard for them .. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Interpol isn’t set up to, or meant to interact with or
engage with civil society. They are purely set up to facilitate coordination
between law enforcement agencies, and to provide a mechanism for warrants from
one country to be propagated to other countries (Interpol’s “red
corner” notices). And of course, capacity building efforts to some
extent.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>They don’t have investigation and arrest powers and are
not the global cops … there are no global cops in the law enforcement
sense.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>That said, if you go to the right public private events on
cybercrime you would definitely get to talk to / interact with Interpol people,
and those I have met, I respect for their acumen and insight into this issue.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Given what I know of what Interpol does (and that barely
scratches the surface) – whatever funding they get is put to far better
use than expense paid junkets (the bane of many an international organization).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> srs<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> George Sadowsky
[mailto:george.sadowsky@attglobal.net] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, December 02, 2007 9:14 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Suresh Ramasubramanian; governance@lists.cpsr.org; 'Alejandro
Pisanty'; 'Jacqueline A. Morris'<br>
<b>Cc:</b> 'Ian Peter'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [governance] Re: IG questions that are not ICANN [was:
Irony]<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Suresh,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Thank you very much. This is quite interesting.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>It's worth listening to Ron Noble's interview. He is
the head of Interpol. He pleads emotionally, to the point of breaking down and
crying, for governments to understand that he has a billion dollar program, not
a million dollar program. He cites budgets of comparable international
institutions and shows what a pittance Interpol gets compared to them.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>If the world believes (whatever that means) that Interpol is
part of the solution against cybercrime and not part of the problem. it
is certainly not putting its money where its mouth is.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Is there any evidence that Interpol is not a worthwhile
investment? I haven't seen any.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>George<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>At 8:38 PM +0700 12/2/07, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal>Well, there is a multitude of organizations.<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal>ITU is the UN agency that handles WSIS action line C5 -
which covers cybersecurity<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal>Interpol certainly does quite a lot on coordinating between
law enforcement agencies on cybercrime issues. In fact, see this
interview with their secretary general Ronald Noble - on ABC 60 minutes.<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><a
href="http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3906861&cl=5007247&ch=4227541&src=news">http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3906861&cl=5007247&ch=4227541&src=news</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal>A lot of additional cooperation also goes on through MLATs -
bilateral "mutual legal assistance treaties" between national police
agencies (such as the US DoJ).<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal>Other organizations that do work to some extent in this area
are ENISA (http://enisa.europa.eu) and the CoE (through their convention
on cybercrime, and a network of 24x7 hotline PoCs that works with / extends the
G8's similar hotline). The international organizations that deal
specifically with this are more than capable.<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal>Then, there's international cooperation on child porn -
public private, this one - <a href="http://www.virtualglobaltaskforce.com">http://www.virtualglobaltaskforce.com</a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal>As I said though, several individual countries' law
enforcement agencies may range all the way down the spectrum from "don't
know" to "don't care". And individual countries may
not have extradiation treaties as well .. so that issues of rather more
significance than cybercrime (such as seeking the arrest of someone who put
plutonium in a guy's sushi not too long back) may run into these very same
issues.<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal>
srs<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b>From:</b> George Sadowsky
[mailto:george.sadowsky@attglobal.net]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, December 02, 2007 8:24 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> governance@lists.cpsr.org; Alejandro Pisanty; Jacqueline A. Morris<br>
<b>Cc:</b> 'Ian Peter'; 'Suresh Ramasubramanian'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [governance] Re: IG questions that are not ICANN [was:
Irony]<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal>So where is the international organization that claims
(cyber)crime as its target? IMHO the obvious target is Interpol.
Yet I don't see strong evidence of Interpol's involvement in cybercrime.
why not? Some possible reasons:<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>(1) It's happening, but I don't see it because I'm not
looking in the right places<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal>(2) It's happening, but purposely being kept secret for the
purposes of effective operations<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal>(3) It's not happening because Interpol doesn't see it as a
high priority or doesn't see it as a part of its mandate<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal>(4) It's not happening because Interpol doesn't have the
resources to address the issue effectively -- technical, legal, or
financial.<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal>(5) None of the above.<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal>Seriously, I would like to understand if our existing
international organizations are capable or could be made capable of really
assisting in this area, or not. This would give us some evidence
regarding in which directions it would be most effective to proceed.<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal>What do we collectively know about Interpol, and possibly
other similar organizations that could provide a basis for a concerted attack
on cybercrime?<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal>Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal>George<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal>At 2:02 AM +0000 12/2/07, Alejandro Pisanty wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>Hi,<br>
<br>
on the strand on cybercrime:<br>
<br>
a useful way to approach this would be to make a quick list of stakeholders
(the four WSIS stakeholder groups, then a more fine-grained segmentation of
these), and their present and possible future roles.<br>
<br>
Thus, you can recognize governments as you are already doing. Governments in
many countries (certainly the once you are mentioning here) have three main
branches, executive, legislative, and judiciary. Each plays or can play a
vital, differentiated role. Then e.g. within the executive you have
differentiated functions - crime prosecution is in the executive in many
countries, crime prevention, education, telecoms regulator (or other setting
and policing rules for ISP operation), and so on.<br>
<br>
The cooperation described in previous emails in this strand is mainly among
law-enforcement agencies, which aid each other cross-border in investigating crimes
and prosecuting criminals.<br>
<br>
Not much of this can be done with cooperation form other parts of the
governments. It is well known that a person that has committed a crime under
the laws of country A but is in country B cannot be captured in country B and
lawfully extradited to country A unless his actions are also a crime in country
B. And then of course you have to have compatible rules for evidence, country A
has to recognize the evidence obtained in country B, the rules for the control
of the custody of the chain of evidence in country B have to satisfy country A,
and so on.<br>
<br>
Lawyers and other experts will be happy to dwell in the details.<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal>The business (what we call the private sector outside the US
and UK) to business cooperation is often easier to meet. Phishing is recognized
by banks in most countries, and though competition issues (banks compete with
each other by being safer, among other factors) may make them want to not
cooperate, once the environment is toxic enough they will not only cooperate
with each other in-country but also cross-border. This gets complicated by the
huge level of consolidation among banks that exists transnationally.<br>
<br>
Other private-sector victims or co-victims to cybercrime (strictly speaking the
bank is not the victim of phishing; the client is the victim; so I use
"co-victim" because banks are shouldering some of the burden for many
reasons) such as small and medium enterprises which are swindled by criminals
(e.g. in fake purchases) may find it more difficult to cooperate with their
peers cross-border directly, preferring their governments to act on their
behalf instead, unless they are very cyber-savvy.<br>
<br>
(And, ah, many of us are of the opinion that there is actually no cybercrime,
only crime committed by cyber means.)<br>
<br>
I'll stop here for a moment and ask, what is the role of civil society in this
picture? (exercise left to the readers.)<br>
<br>
Yours,<br>
<br>
Alejandro Pisanty<br>
<br>
<br>
. . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . .<br>
Dr. Alejandro Pisanty<br>
Director General de Servicios de Computo Academico<br>
UNAM, Universidad Nacional Autonoma de Mexico<br>
Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico<br>
Tel. (+52-55) 5622-8541, 5622-8542 Fax 5622-8540<br>
http://www.dgsca.unam.mx<br>
*<br>
---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, www.isoc.org<br>
Participa en ICANN, www.icann.org<br>
. . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . .<br>
<br>
<br>
On Sat, 1 Dec 2007, Jacqueline A. Morris wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal>Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 21:34:54 -0400<br>
From: Jacqueline A. Morris <jam@jacquelinemorris.com><br>
Reply-To: governance@lists.cpsr.org,<br>
Jacqueline A. Morris <jam@jacquelinemorris.com><br>
To: governance@lists.cpsr.org, 'Ian Peter' <ian.peter@ianpeter.com>,<br>
'Suresh Ramasubramanian' <suresh@hserus.net><br>
Subject: RE: [governance] Re: IG questions that are not ICANN [was: Irony]<br>
<br>
There is some cross-boundary cooperation, but it isn't easy. There are some<br>
bilateral agreements (for example between Trinidad and Tobago and the UK and<br>
also with the US ) that allow for co-ordination and cooperation in certain<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal>instances, but some in the local Police complain that the
processes are<br>
unwieldy.<br>
I do agree that there needs to be more than simple government to government<br>
cooperation. But governments are vital, in that they are the ones who can<br>
sign agreements that are binding, they can amend laws that allow for<br>
cooperation (and that is important with regard to evidence, with regard to<br>
what is allowed in different jurisdictions, such as methods of data<br>
gathering).<br>
Jacqueline<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Ian Peter [mailto:ian.peter@ianpeter.com]<br>
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 23:03<br>
To: governance@lists.cpsr.org; 'Suresh Ramasubramanian'<br>
Subject: RE: [governance] Re: IG questions that are not ICANN [was:<br>
Irony]<br>
<br>
Nice concept Suresh, but at Rio a number of govt reps complained at the<br>
almost total lack of international co-operation in this area and the<br>
ineffectiveness of current efforts because there is no way to get<br>
cross-boundary co-operation currently.<br>
<br>
That's a structural problem IMHO. And one not likely to be solved<br>
solely by<br>
governments co-operating among themselves. In addition technical<br>
co-operation is necessary as they readily admit - that takes two forms<br>
at<br>
least which I outlined. Finally the public policy issues are<br>
substantial of<br>
course.<br>
.<br>
<br>
Ian Peter<br>
Ian Peter and Associates Pty Ltd<br>
PO Box 10670 Adelaide St Brisbane 4000<br>
Australia<br>
Tel (+614) 1966 7772 or (+612) 6687 0773<br>
www.ianpeter.com<br>
www.internetmark2.org<br>
www.nethistory.info<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Suresh Ramasubramanian [mailto:suresh@hserus.net]<br>
Sent: 01 December 2007 14:00<br>
To: governance@lists.cpsr.org; Ian Peter<br>
Cc: 'Alejandro Pisanty'; 'Milton L Mueller'<br>
Subject: Re: [governance] Re: IG questions that are not ICANN [was:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>Irony]<br>
<br>
Ian Peter [01/12/07 13:45 +1100]:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal>A structure for dealing with cybercrime would have the
following<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal>inputs<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal>1. Governmental<br>
2. Industry players (carriers, ISPs, etc)<br>
3. Technical innovators and standards groups<br>
4. Public interest groups<br>
Each would need representation on a structure dealing with this issue.<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><br>
Actually, the focus would not be on "governance" - it would be on<br>
interoperability and cooperation across "stakeholder communities" (or<br>
stakeholder silos, as I've heard them called .. civ soc talking to<br>
other<br>
civ soc, agency talking to agency etc)<br>
<br>
Take a look at these three - they actually do a lot of what you ask<br>
for.<br>
<br>
CoE convention on cybercrime -<br>
http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/EN/Treaties/Html/185.htm<br>
<br>
ITU botnet project - again, taking these concepts you cite and applying<br>
them practically, instead of as a thought experiment -<br>
http://www.itu.int/ITU-D/cyb/cybersecurity/projects/botnet.html<br>
http://www.itu.int/ITU-D/cyb/cybersecurity/docs/itu-botnet-mitigation-<br>
toolki<br>
t-background.pdf<br>
<br>
And then this - a "self assessment" document to help a country assess<br>
how<br>
ready it is to deal with cybersecurity.<br>
http://www.itu.int/ITU-D/cyb/cybersecurity/projects/readiness.html<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal>Effective action would require the consent and involvement
of each<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal>group<br>
<br>
At an international level? What you would get at that level is again<br>
coordination and cooperation at a broad level, and awareness of each<br>
others<br>
initiatives. It is not like (say) governing a swiss canton where all<br>
the<br>
citizens can get together to decide where to build the next public<br>
toilet<br>
or how much to spend to improve a local park.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal> srs<o:p></o:p></p>
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