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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Kieren:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I agree that we need to avoid ad hominem
attacks. More about that later. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>But your example below is precisely what
people fear when there is talk of “moderation” of the list and an
attempt to enforce standards of civility. It can easily transform into the kind
of censorship Rony Koven is warning about. What I see in my response to Jacky
is a substantive discussion of, and disagreement about, the nature of global
democracy and the At Large. There is nothing personal about it. There may be
different styles of communication but that’s always going to be an issue
in a global forum combining different cultures. Fundamentally, we are having
political debates. Some of us believe that the stakes are high. Any attempt to
de-politicize these disagreements by calling one side “rude” is not
any sort of progress. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I have difficulty understanding how my
claim that a certain position is “more accurate” than Jacky’s
view is provocative or personalized. It simply calls to our attention a real
and important logical contradiction between those who (like Jacky) are claiming
that global voting for Board members is not in the interest of smaller
countries and the developing world, and those who believe that it would
significantly shift authority over global governance to them. I think Jacky’s
position is not correct. She no doubt thinks it is. I’m willing to hear
more about her position. It’s an important debate and it should not be
disrupted or pushed aside by overly sensitive claims of “rudeness.”
Your claim basically short-circuits that debate. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The same goes for an earlier comment you
tried to dismiss as “ad hominem.” I made a comparison between the
China-imposed electoral system in <st1:place w:st="on">Hong Kong</st1:place>
and ICANN’s so-called “bottom-up” consultative system. I
cannot fathom how such a comment was interpreted by you as “ad hominem.”
It was about political structures; it was not about you. Unless you mean that
you will interpret any political criticism of your employer as a personal
insult. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>“Ad hominem” means that the
argument relates “to the man [person]”. My arguments are not about
personalities. They are about ideas and principles. From my point of view, both
you and Jacky are fun and interesting people. No reason and intention to attack
either of you personally. Frankly, I am not the least interested in
personalities, practically to a fault. You have seen me agree with you online
(something that has of course never been reciprocated) and you will see me
disagree when our ideas differ. The same can occur with any other person on the
list. That’s all it’s about. This is to be contrasted with, e.g.,
Suresh, almost all of whose comments about me are motivated entirely by
personal animosity and have zero substance (e.g., I am “full of bile”).
Which brings us to another point: sure, in the heat of debate I may stray over
the line and offend people once in a while. Let me know when I do that. But if
you want to be credible when you do, try applying the same standards to Veni
and Alejandro and Suresh and all others. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> <st1:PersonName
w:st="on">Kieren McCarthy</st1:PersonName> [mailto:kierenmccarthy@gmail.com] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, November 23, 2007
1:18 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> governance@lists.cpsr.org<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE: [governance] Rudeness
tectics (was Re: Reinstate the Vote)</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>> </span></font>i think defining
rudeness will be as difficult as defining morality.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I think you’re spreading too far
afield with this approach, Avri.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I would define rudeness in the context
that I was complaining about as:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>“The deliberate use of provocative language
intended to irritate or annoy an individual; ascribing negative connotations to
an individual without evidence or reasoned analysis; mockery or dismissal of
someone’s else’s honestly held viewpoint.”<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I think it is fine to refer to
individuals’ comments and suggestions, and it is also fine to disagree
with them – in fact, that is exactly what works best with these sorts of
discussions. As an example of what I think is fair comment, I will refer to a
comment inserted by <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Milton</st1:City></st1:place>
this morning as a perfect example of the sort of rudeness that this list could
well do without.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>In response to a Jacqueline comment, <st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Milton</st1:City></st1:place> responded:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 color=navy
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>“</span></font><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Well, all I
can say is that the reason most American business people are terrified of such
voting is that they conclude (more accurately than you, I am afraid) that such
a mechanism would empower the "new Internet world" of tens of
millions of Chinese and Indians and, in relative terms, erode their current
power. ”<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The “more accurately than you, I am
afraid” was deliberately provocative, added nothing to the discussion,
came with no evidence or reasoned analysis, and both mocked Jacqueline and
dismissed her honestly held viewpoint.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>It has no place in reasonable discussions.
Which is a shame because <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Milton</st1:City></st1:place>
then went on to raise some interesting ideas about ALSes which I personally
would be happy to discuss but which I won’t respond to because of the
unpleasantness earlier in the email.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Kieren<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> <st1:PersonName
w:st="on">Avri Doria</st1:PersonName> [mailto:avri@psg.com] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, November 23, 2007
8:57 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Internet Governance Caucus<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [governance] Rudeness
tectics (was Re: Reinstate the Vote)</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>On 23 nov 2007, at 08.09, Norbert Bollow wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=1 face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:Helvetica'>Given that the use of rudeness
tectics against specific people with</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=1 face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:Helvetica'>the goal of reducing their ability
to effectively communicate their</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=1 face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:Helvetica'>viewpoints is a significant
problem in internet-based group</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=1 face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:Helvetica'>dosucssions, I would suggest that
it should be considered part of the</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=1 face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:Helvetica'>substance of internet governance
discussions to figure out how this</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=1 face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:7.0pt;font-family:Helvetica'>problem should be addressed.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>i think defining rudeness will be as difficult as defining morality.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>we would also need to study the use of accusations of rudeness<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>in their tactical role in internet discussion.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>while i do think it would make for a interesting academic exercise and
if<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>i can find a student who also thinks it a cool subject would try to<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>support that research, i am not sure that it is quite ready to be
considered<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>a substantive part of the Internet Governance debate.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>a.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>ps, was this rude?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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