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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:5.25pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Thanks, Bertrand, for
clarifying my position : ).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:5.25pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:5.25pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>I had taken note of Avri
comments about lack of ‘representative-ness’ in speaking for
non-users but I did not labor an explanation because these issues are well
established in theoretical discourses about civil society. In practical terms,
to pick an issue that IGC is very fond of, using strict representative-ness
yardstick of ‘being subject to the conditions’ before one speaks
about and for them, FoE should only be spoken of by people who themselves have
considerable limitations placed on their FoE. Else, there is great fear you may
be distorting the ‘real’ and ‘felt’ perspectives that
those subject to FoE restrictions have…. ……..How does this
sit with FoE advocates.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:5.25pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:5.25pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Parminder <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
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10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=gray face="Arial Narrow"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Narrow";color:gray'>________________________________________________</span></font><font
color=navy><span style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=gray face="Arial Narrow"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Narrow";color:gray'>Parminder Jeet
Singh</span></font><font color=navy><span style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=gray face="Arial Narrow"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Narrow";color:gray'>IT for Change, <st1:City
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Bangalore</st1:place></st1:City></span></font><font
color=navy><span style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><em><i><font size=2 color=gray face="Arial Narrow"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Narrow";color:gray'>Bridging
Development Realities and Technological Possibilities</span></font></i></em><font
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"Arial Narrow";color:gray'> </span></font><font color=navy><span
style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=gray face="Arial Narrow"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Narrow";color:gray'>Tel: (+91-80)
2665 4134, 2653 6890</span></font><font color=navy><span style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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4146 1055<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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title="http://www.itforchange.net/"><em><i><font size=2 face=Arial
title="http://www.itforchange.net/"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial'>www.ITforChange.net</span></font></i></em></a></span></font><font
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color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> <st1:PersonName
w:st="on">Bertrand de La Chapelle</st1:PersonName>
[mailto:bdelachapelle@gmail.com] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, April 23, 2007 10:17
PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">governance@lists.cpsr.org</st1:PersonName>;
Avri Doria<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [governance] Interent
community, internet users, and the people</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Dear all,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>To push Avir's comments a bit further, this touches upon the delicate
issue of representativity and accountability in multi-stakeholder processes.
(Note : what is below was written before Parminder's last post but it applies
to it as well). <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>What Parminder rightly raises is the need to take into account in any
policy discussion the potential impact on the present non-users and their
interests. And I do not think that anybody opposes that, including Jeremy. The
key question is how and to pick Parminder's comments : who "represents"
these interests ? <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>As Avri rightly said, the very fact that somebody intervenes on this
list (not only an Internet list, but one would say a rather specialized one :-)
means that, by definition, he/she is not a non-user.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>This person cannot claim to represent the non-users in the
representative democracy sense, unless there is some sort of organization that
has been set up exclusively for the purpose of representing non-Internet users
and can transparently demonstrate a list of members. And even if such an
organization existed, with thousands of members, it could only
claim representing those thousands and not the 4 or 5 billion not yet
online. Without addressing the question of how to consult that
community on a five day's notice on a possible statement in a future IGF
consultation ....;-) <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>But does represntative democracy need to be the model ? <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>I believe Parminder's approach in that debate should be analyzed
differently. In multi-stakeholder governance processes and policy developments,
stakeholders, and particularly NGOs or individuals do not
"represent" constituencies or groups of individuals in the
representative democracy sense of the term. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><strong><b><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Such advocates do not "represent" (ie speak
"in place" or on behalf of) somebody esle; they speak "in
favor" of them. They represent viewpoints and interests, not people</span></font></b></strong>
so as to make sure that all facets of an issue are taken into account.
They give everybody a voice, not a vote. They actually contribute to the
definition of the best global interest on that issue. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>This is why single individuals that can really contribute should be not
only allowed but welcomed into those processes. They may be
disproportionately useful as wompared with their "representativity".
And of course, measures should be taken to avoid that they are not
disproportionately detrimental to the process :-) <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>All in all, this is the core of the notion of stakeholdership : policy
development processes, when they deal with highly transversal, multi-layer and
non linear processes absolutely need to take into account all potential impacts
early on. And this is why the processes should be open to all actors who have a
direct stake in the issue or who want to contribute to highlight the
importance of a certain aspect. Advocacy NGOs can bring a useful
contribution in that respect, even if through a single person with wide
knowledge of the issue. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>And this relates to accountability and transparency in at least two
ways :<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>- when somebody intends to formally speak "in the name"
of someone or some group, transparency requires that this "mandate"
is clear and that instructions to that purpose have actually been given; <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>- when somebody participates in a formal decision, particularly through
voting, chains of accountability must be in place in each organization or
constituency. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>But in the present decision-shaping processes on the contrary, all
contributions should be encouraged, on an equal footing, measured only by their
capacity to help define a better public interest. So Parminder plays a perfectly legitimate
role when he raises the question of how to take into account the non-users.
Because it is a key public policy dimension of a lot of the issues we address. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>This would be less the case if he implied that
he represents 5 billion people and others only specific interests. But I
know he doesn't ;-) <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Best<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Bertrand <br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=gmailquote><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>On 4/23/07, <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Avri
Doria</span></b> <<a href="mailto:avri@psg.com">avri@psg.com</a>> wrote:</span></font></span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Hi,<br>
<br>
On 23 apr 2007, at 04.50, Parminder wrote:<br>
<br>
><br>
>> My understanding of the<br>
>> Internet community is simply the community of Internet users. <br>
><br>
> Good we got into this discussion, because too often you and I agree<br>
> on many<br>
> things on the IGC list :) but this shows how we disagree at more basic<br>
> levels. To illustrate by personal example, I myself have great <br>
> interest in<br>
> IG as you can see. I almost entirely speak for the interests for<br>
> the present<br>
> non-users (and some indirect users). So, if non-users aren't an<br>
> equally<br>
> legitimate constituency in IG, by your reckoning I just shouldn't <br>
> be here.<br>
> At the very least, this proves we have strong difference about what<br>
> we all<br>
> are doing in IG fora.<br>
<br>
<br>
i don't understand this. and disagree with both of you, i think.<br>
<br>
i think there are many communities of interest and trying to abstract<br>
them all into one Internet Community is not necessarily helpful.<br>
there are several levels of affinity:<br>
<br>
- those professionals and amateurs who are involved in the <br>
development, care and feeding of the Internet - this is, I believe,<br>
the original referent of Internet Community<br>
<br>
- those who currently use the Internet - i think of these as the<br>
Internet User Community<br>
<br>
- those whom the Internet does not serve yet. i am not sure what the<br>
right name for these people is, but they are perhaps the Future<br>
Internet Users community or as you say the non, or indirect, user<br>
community. <br>
<br>
Depending on the subject at hand, for example internet resources, we<br>
may have other groupings, e.g. the registrants who have name and<br>
address assignments.<br>
<br>
Each of these grouping has a different perspective on the network. I
<br>
do not mnimize the view of one versus the other and believe they are<br>
all stakeholders in the IG process, each from their own perspective<br>
and in their own role - one cannot expect someone who uses the<br>
Internet daily to have the same perspective as someone who has never <br>
even heard of the Internet.<br>
<br>
I think everyone on this list belongs, at least to the Internet User<br>
Community and some belong to the Internet Community. I don't think<br>
any of us qualify for the third group, and while we may try to <br>
represent their interests from our privileged position (personally, i<br>
certainly try to for nomadic peoples who live in remote<br>
communications challenged areas) but we do not have their perspective<br>
and can not be said to be in the same affinity group except at such a <br>
level of abstraction - i.e. we are all people talking about the<br>
Internet - that it provides little information.<br>
<br>
a.<br>
<br>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<br>
-- <br>
____________________<br>
<st1:PersonName w:st="on">Bertrand de La Chapelle</st1:PersonName><br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Tel : +33 (0)6 11 88 33 32<br>
<br>
"Le plus beau métier des hommes, c'est d'unir les hommes" Antoine de
Saint Exupéry<br>
("there is no better mission for humans than uniting humans") <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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