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IGC@IGF</title></head><body>
<div>Comments below.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>At 11:55 AM +0530 10/23/06, Parminder wrote:</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1"> </font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1">George</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1"> </font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1">>I'm</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
concerned</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
about the economic health of the Internet industry in
a</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
country, and</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
that's very much a function of the government's
attitude</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
toward</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
competition, free enterprise, laissez-faire (or not),
and</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
transparency, in procurement, in giving licenses, in
creating</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
or</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
destroying barriers to entry, etc....</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1"> </font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">I know
that is the dominant take on the issues, which we keep trying to
challenge.</font></blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>Why? Why not see your own vision as a complement to
it?</div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1"> I know pro-competition policies are important, but has
it occurred to you that large scale public investment in ICT
infrastructure (and ICT infrastructure, apart from telecom access,
also includes software, hardware, localization, service delivery
systems etc) plays an important role in reaching the benefits to all
people - as it has done in case of all important infrastructure in
the yesteryears in developed countries as well. Indian governments,
for instance, are putting in a lot of public investments into this
after they have seen that private investments really did not reach ICT
benefits to all.</font></blockquote>
<div><br>
<br>
</div>
<div>Yes, it has occurred to me. Check the writings in my
bibliography. Look at:</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><x-tab>
</x-tab>http://www.internetpolicy.net/</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>the project that I've been directing for the lpast 5
years. I want the Internet industries in each
country to thrive because of what a strong Internet industry can do
for social and economic development.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>And when the government engages in various kinds of subsidization
to assist the industry by investing in local capacities of
various kinds, so much the better.</div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1"> </font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">But I
notice that you speak of the 'economic health of the Internet
industry' and not about socio-economic development of a
country/ society, so you may to that extent be right in your partial
view of things.</font></blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>Let's be clear. Internet is a means to various ends, open
societies, pluralistic democracies, economic growth. One can
concentrate upon the dynamics of the industry and still be very
conscious that the reason why it's important lies beyond the industry
itself.</div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1"> </font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">This
was however beside the point on the national versus international
issues debate. But it does go to show that we all have a good view of
the importance of national policy space (governmental or
multistakeholder).</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1"> </font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">So
since we are on eve of an international forum, and the discussion
started in that context, the onus is on whoever speaks that the
'international space is not significant' and not the other way
around. In a similar way, if we were in a national policy space
speaking exclusively of importance of issues that pertain to
international spaces and cannot be taken up nationally will be an
avoidable distraction.</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1"> </font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
Just trying to restore a sense of balance to the
discussion</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
...</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1"> </font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">So,
the balance, in the present context, lies in engaging with what is
important from a global policy spaces perspective.</font></blockquote>
<div><br>
And in not misidentifying what is important in the global policy
space.</div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1"> </font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1"> </font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1">Parminder</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1"> </font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1"> </font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1"> </font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1">________________________________________________</font></blockquote
>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1">Parminder Jeet Singh</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">IT for
Change, Bangalore</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1">Bridging Development Realities and Technological
Possibilities</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">Tel:
(+91-80) 2665 4134, 2653 6890</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">Fax:
(+91-80) 4146 1055</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1">www.ITforChange.net</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1"> </font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
-----Original Message-----</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
From: George Sadowsky
[mailto:george.sadowsky@attglobal.net]</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 2:28 AM</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
To: Milton Mueller; governance@lists.cpsr.org; Avri
Doria</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
Subject: Re: [governance] Program for IGC@IGF</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1">></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
Milton,</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1">></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
I'm concerned with a slightly broader aspect, although
my</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
focus in</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
this thread is clearly upon access, in a larger sense.
I'm</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
concerned</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
about the economic health of the Internet industry in
a</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
country, and</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
that's very much a function of the government's
attitude</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
toward</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
competition, free enterprise, laissez-faire (or not),
and</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
transparency, in procurement, in giving licenses, in
creating</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
or</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
destroying barriers to entry, etc....</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1">></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
The healthier and fairer that the industry is, the
more</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
prices to</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
consumers of Internet services will reflect real costs
and</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
not</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
monopoly status, the more customers are able to trust
the</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
access they</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
have as being confidential, then the faster the Internet
will</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
grow</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
and serve the developmental goals of the country. And,
if</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
the</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
country has reasonable consumer protection legislation, it
is</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
likely</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
to really benefit the growth of e-commerce on the net and
not</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
retard</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
it. These are issues that are directly affected by
national</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
government policy, legislation and regulation.</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1">></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
What I do disagree with is Avri's assertion that it is
ONLY</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
on the</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
international stage that Internet issues can be dealt
with.</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">> I
do not</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
disagree with the implication that there do exist issues
that</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
require</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
international attention.</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1">></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
Just trying to restore a sense of balance to the
discussion</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
...</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1">></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
Regards,</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1">></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
George</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1">></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</font
></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1">></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
At 4:05 PM -0400 10/22/06, Milton Mueller wrote:</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>This is an interesting discussion. I find myself
agreeing</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
with both Avri</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>and George. The positions can be reconciled by noting
that</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
George is</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>talking mainly about the relationship between
Internet</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
access and the</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>physical layer (wireless, broadband and other forms
of</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
infrastructure</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>development) whereas Avri is refrring to "the Internet"
as a</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
whole which</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>is of course global in scope and a layer 3
issue.</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>There is no doubt in my mind that the policies that
affect</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
the</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>availability of physical infrastructure in a country
are</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
primarily</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>national in development and application. And they
are</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
affected not only</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>by national telecom policies, they are powerfully
affected</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
by national</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>economic development policies, for if people have
enough</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
money to buy</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>services lots of infrastructure development issues take
care</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
of</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>themselves more readily, as the Chinese have
learned.</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>>>> george.sadowsky@attglobal.net 10/22/2006
9:01:20 AM >>></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>Avri,</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>Let's look at access policy _within_ a country,
e.g.</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
licensing of</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>ISPs, decisions with regard to ISP liability,
monopoly</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
telecomm</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>carriers, not-level playing fields, licensing of
ISPs,</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
licensing of</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>wireless frequencies and devices. etc. These are
all</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
issues of</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>national policy.</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>It may be that international best practices can provide
good</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>guidelines, but these are more likely to be de
facto</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
standards set by</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>industry than the result of intergovernmental
action.</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>Perhaps we have different definitions of
policy.</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>George</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>At 12:04 AM +0200 10/22/06, Avri Doria wrote:</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>>Hi,</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>>On 21 okt 2006, at 21.11, George Sadowsky
wrote:</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>>>What I am reacting to is what I observe is
the</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
conventional wisdom</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>>>that I find faulty: that Internet governance and
related</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
Internet</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>>>issues are essentially international in
character,</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>>I disagree. I think it is only on the international
stage</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
that</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>>governance and other Internet issues can be dealt. I
don't</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
believe</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>>that it is up to governments to do it though i do see
them</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
having</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>>some role. i don't believe there is is any right
of</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
nations to make</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>>policy vis a vis the Internet. They may do so, and
they</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
even get</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>>away with it at the moment, but i think we lose a
major</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
battle the</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>>second we start to believe that they have some _right_
to</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
do so. I</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>>tend to view the IGF and other international, but
not</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>>intergovernemental, organizations as a bulwark against
the</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>>continuing nationalization of the
Internet.</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>>>that wanted to emasculate ICANN</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
> ></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>>interesting image, but i do not see what being
masculine,</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
or having</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>>masculine external attributes, has to do with being
an</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
effective</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>>international organization. not that i am prepared
to</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
argue that</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>>the current ICANN incarnation is particularly
effective,</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
though i</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>>think that has more to do with its form of governance
and</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
its lack</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>>of freedom from national and other government
pressure.</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>>a.</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>>___________________________________________________________</font
></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
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