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--></style><title>RE: [governance] Program for
IGC@IGF</title></head><body>
<div>Parminder,</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>You are absolutely right that there are significant and major
issues that are international in scope and require international
leadership to address. To name just two that will be discussed
at the IGF, I note cybercrime and spam, and there are clearly
others.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>What I am reacting to is what I observe is the conventional
wisdom that I find faulty: that Internet governance and related
Internet issues are essentially international in character, and that
national issues are secondary. In almost all developing
countries that I have worked in (and I've worked in over 50, although
many before the Internet), national government policies have been the
determining factor regarding the health of the ICT industry, the
ability of people to gain access to computers and, of importance to us
here, the ability of the Internet to spread in an accessible and
affordable manner.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>So my post is essentially a reaction against the idea that the
IGF, and the UN, and the ITU, and ... (choose your favorite cast of
international characters) will be able to solve the issue of Internet
governance and associated Internet issues. And if we go back to
WSIS-2, I challenge you to make a list of the countries that wanted to
emasculate ICANN that, in their own country, actively limit access to
the Internet through monopoly control and/or high prices, disregard
and violate confidentiality of communication, censor information, and
punish people severely for attempting to create a free flow of
information. I think the list would be long. Yet all of
those countries implicitly or explicitly agreed with both the vision
statement and the plan of action, both international documents created
during WSIS-1. Talk is cheap; action is definitive.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Now, if you wonder why the world has been spending so much time
holding global conferences over such issues, I'm inclined to share
that concern with you. The global arena is an important policy
arena, but for those issues that can be influenced by global action.
We may differ on exactly what issues are contained within that
set.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>I do differ with your conclusion. Such views do not have
anti-public policy biases. Rather, they reflect the desirability
of taking action with respect to issues in appropriate venues.
We probably generally share working toward the goals of making this
world "a better place," but we may not share the same
concept of the means to get there.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>I hope that these remarks have been helpful.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>George</div>
<div><br></div>
<div
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<span
></span>~~~~~</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>At 10:00 PM +0530 10/21/06, Parminder wrote:</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1"> </font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">> I
welcome McTim's response; it goes right to the heart of
the</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
matter.</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
In my view, it highlights one of the unspoken and
politically</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
incorrect truths of the entire WSIS process, i.e. that
many</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
(the</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
great majority in my opinion) of the issues under
discussion</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
with</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
respect to the Internet are national and sub-national
issues,</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
not</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
international issues. </font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1"> </font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">I
really cant understand the implication Of Tim's And George's
comments....</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1"> </font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">So
they think there ARE'NT any, significant, public policy issues of
global nature pertaining to the Internet...</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1"> </font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">Now,
if this is truly their belief I will like to know what is the nature
of their interest in IGF. (And I see that George is also a SAG
member). IGF was set up with good belief in importance of such
issuesŠ</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1"> </font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">Are we
getting national level stakeholders together just to tell them there
isnt anything to be discussed and done at the global level, so go home
and put your house in order (if you may)...</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1"> </font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">Human
rights, socio-economic rights, crime and terrorism, environment
issues, development.... everything that way would be national issues -
wonder why the world had been spending so much time holding global
conference/ summits/ CS meetings etc over such issues..... Everyone
knows the importance of dealing with these issues and national and
sub-national levels, but the global is an increasingly important
policy arena..</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1"> </font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">Such
views have this intrinsic anti-public policy biases which I consider
dangerous, especially in an increasingly globalized world. It does
nothing other then provide space for rule of the 'invisible'
dominant forces. Political power doesn't go away by not engaging
with itŠ</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1"> </font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1">Parminder</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1">________________________________________________</font></blockquote
>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1">Parminder Jeet Singh</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">IT for
Change, Bangalore</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1">Bridging Development Realities and Technological
Possibilities</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">Tel:
(+91-80) 2665 4134, 2653 6890</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">Fax:
(+91-80) 4146 1055</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1">www.ITforChange.net</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1"> </font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
-----Original Message-----</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
From: George Sadowsky
[mailto:george.sadowsky@attglobal.net]</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 9:22 PM</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
To: governance@lists.cpsr.org; McTim; Jeremy
Malcolm</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
Cc: governance@lists.cpsr.org</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
Subject: Re: [governance] Program for IGC@IGF</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1">></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
All,</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1">></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">> I
welcome McTim's response; it goes right to the heart of
the</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
matter.</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
In my view, it highlights one of the unspoken and
politically</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
incorrect truths of the entire WSIS process, i.e. that
many</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
(the</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
great majority in my opinion) of the issues under
discussion</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
with</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
respect to the Internet are national and sub-national
issues,</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
not</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
international issues. Raising them in an
international</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
context may</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
allow governments to superficially abdicate their</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
responsibility for</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
dealing effectively with these issues at home. It
could,</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
however,</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
have the beneficial effect of putting a spotlight on
the</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
issues, but</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
this will only help if the responsibility for solving them
is</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
placed</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
directly and explicitly on national governments, not on
any</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
international community.</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1">></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
The ISOC and GIPI Access workshop, starting first
thing</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
Tuesday</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
morning, will try to separate these issues with respect
to</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
access.</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
My own organization, GIPI (www.internetpolicy.net) has
been</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
active in</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
about 20 countries trying to influence national
legislation</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
and</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
regulation in favor of the increased availability,
access,</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
and</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
affordability of the Internet, and yes, with an emphasis
upon</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
consumer protection and confidentiality of information.
Let</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
me tell</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
you that it is difficult work, requiring full time
resources</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
on a</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
continued basis. Governments, especially those in
non-</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
democratic</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
countries, to give up control. that is where the
battles</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
must occur.</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1">></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
If you want to do something about non-transparency,
let's</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
start by</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
working on the most blatant examples of it: governments
such</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
as North</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
Korea, Myanmar and Kazakhstan, and quite a few more, not
on</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
institutions that are trying, even if only tangentially,
to</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
do</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
something positive with respect to them.</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1">></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
There clearly are issues that are international in scope
that</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
that</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
are good candidates for intelligent discussion in</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
international fora.</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
It remains to be seen how much of that will occur at the
IGF.</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1">></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
Let's also stop accepting revisionist history as anything
but</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
an</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
admission of ignorance or unwillingness to accept the
truth.</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
Good</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
examples of this are contained in the recent
Linguistic</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
Diversity</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
workshop outline. As Stephane Bortzmeyer points out, and
as</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
those of</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
us who have worked in ICT for quite a few years
know,</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
linguistic</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
diversity has been an issue of active concern since at
least</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
the</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
1970's. If workshops and other discussions are not
based</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
upon an</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
accurate understanding of history and an accurate
assessment</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
of the</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
nature of the problem and ongoing efforts to solve it,
then</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
their</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
proceedings and conclusions will be ignored, and
correctly</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
so, as a</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
silly waste of time by people who don't know any
better.</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1">></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
George Sadowsky</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1">></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</font
></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
~~~~~~~~~~~~</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1">></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New"
size="-1">></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
At 5:55 PM +0300 10/20/06, McTim wrote:</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>On 10/20/06, Jeremy Malcolm <Jeremy@malcolm.id.au>
wrote:</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>>Not having a go, Tim - I appreciate the feedback - but
I</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
know that you</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>>speak for a lot of others, and so I have to ask, do
those</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
other bodies</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>>you refer to make decisions about:</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>I speak for myself, tho others may share my
views.</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>>* Freedom of expression on the Internet</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>>* Responding uniformly to cybercrime</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>>* Data protection and privacy rights
online</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>>* Equity in interconnection costs</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>>* Consumer protection such as
anti-phishing</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>>* etc, etc, etc</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>not directly, but neither will the IGF.</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>>Do you not care about these issues (fair enough), or do
you</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
think other</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>>bodies are dealing with them adequately, or do you
think</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
they are</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>>ungovernable?</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>Those issues will be dealt with in national laws
and</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
regulations. Not</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>that that is a *good thing*, but that is the way it
is.</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>>Because speaking for myself, I do care about them, I
don't</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
think any</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>>other body is dealing with them in a transnational
and</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
inclusive way,</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>>and I think that the IGF is our first, best chance to
do</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
so.</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>>But I am worried that the opportunity will be
squandered</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
and the IGF</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>>become just another intergovernmental body in which
the</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
non-state</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>>stakeholders serve no purpose but to feed input
into</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
independent</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>>governmental policy-making processes.</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>I'm not sure it will even do that!</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>--</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>Cheers,</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>McTim</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>$ whois -h whois.afrinic.net mctim</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>____________________________________________________________</font
></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>You received this message as a subscriber on the
list:</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Courier New" size="-1">>
>
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