AW: AW: [governance] Internet as a commons/ public good; was, Conflicts in Internet Governance
Philipp Mirtl
Philipp.Mirtl at oiip.ac.at
Mon Apr 15 10:25:53 EDT 2013
Dear Adam,
In case my previous post was misunderstood: I did not at all intend to challenge any definitions describing the Internet as a global commons and a global public good. Nevertheless, I sometimes have the impression that people (not always economists) are not totally aware of the fact that the Internet is not 'just one thing', but in fact many, and that these many things (or components) can indeed qualify for different characteristics (e.g., non-rivalrous/non-excludable).
In this context, I found Matthias' point interesting, suggesting to make a distinction when talking about "the Internet". In fact, I think that some people (outside this list and concerned organizations) do sometimes not really have a clear understanding of the differences you made, say between network access and critical internet resources. However, I also understand that too much detail does not serve the purpose of a short definition and could, even worse, be misleading in the end.
Sorry for any misunderstanding,
Philipp
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: apeake at gmail.com [mailto:apeake at gmail.com] Im Auftrag von Adam Peake
Gesendet: Montag, 15. April 2013 11:39
An: governance at lists.igcaucus.org; Philipp Mirtl
Betreff: Re: AW: [governance] Internet as a commons/ public good; was, Conflicts in Internet Governance
Hi,
The ITU SG's Report for WTPF-13
<http://www.itu.int/md/S13-WTPF13-C-0003/en> contains the following, page 8:
o) Today, the Internet is becoming "one of the basic commodities of
life" and various studies have cited the information and knowledge provided over the Internet as examples of global public goods
and this footnote from the para:
"Knowledge as a Global Public Good", Joseph Stiglitz, available at:
http://cgt.columbia.edu/files/papers/1999_Knowledge_as_Global_Public_Good_stiglitz.pdf.
A chapter in Providing Global Public Goods: Managing Globalization argues that telecommunications and the Internet are themselves global public goods; however, most observers agree that it is the knowledge and information provided over the Internet which are non-rivalrous and non-excludable, rather than the networks (which may be rivalrous and excludable). See also the ICT For Development Report (World Bank,
2009) and "Confronting the Crisis: ICT Stimulus Plans for Economic Growth" (ITU, 2009). (end quote)
Expect at some point we will think about submitting comments to WTPF, this short para and footnote might be worth focusing on.
Networks/access may be rivalrous and excludable.
What runs over the Internet, non-rivalrous and non-excludable Critical internet resources, rivalrous and excludable. And should be managed to minimize former, and if we hold this to be true "[Internet is becoming] one of the basic commodities of life" must be managed to prevent exclusion... which I think means we should re-write the "U.S.
Principles on the Internet's Domain Name and Addressing System" from June 2005, and then the IANA contract :-)
Adam
On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 5:54 PM, Philipp Mirtl <Philipp.Mirtl at oiip.ac.at<mailto:Philipp.Mirtl at oiip.ac.at>> wrote:
> Dear all,
>
>
>
> I find Parminder's definition of the Internet as both a common
> (non-exclusive/rivalrous) as well as a public good
> (non-exclusive/non-rivalrous) interesting. I think there is a vivid
> discussion on this which is probably why this point has potential to
> go beyond its conceptual nature:
>
>
>
> 1. Rosenzweig (2011), "Cybersecurity and Public Goods. The
> Public/Private 'Partnership'",
> http://media.hoover.org/sites/default/files/documents/EmergingThreats_
> Rosenzweig.pdf (e.g., see figure on p. 8), which defines the "early
> Internet" - as Avri did below - as having been a commons.
>
>
>
> 2. Bauer/van Eeten (2009), "Cybersecurity: Stakeholder
> incentives, externalities, and policy options", which argues -
> similar, but not identical to Matthias' argument - that cyber security
> "has strong public good characteristics". When applied to the
> Internet, this seems to me to be sort of consistent with Anriette's term "public-good-like"
>
>
>
> 3. I am sure there is a bunch of other articles on this
>
>
>
> I also think that a positive perspective on global public goods makes
> good sense, especially when viewed in light of Thomas Jefferson's
> famous quote on
> knowledge: "he who receives an idea from me, receives instruction
> himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine,
> receives light without darkening me."
>
>
>
> Personally, I think Anriette's point is quite interesting, holding
> that it is probably difficult to define the Internet as 'just one
> thing'. But maybe parts of it fall into one of the above categories?
>
>
>
> Best,
>
>
>
> Philipp
>
>
>
>
>
> Von: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org<mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org>
> [mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] Im Auftrag von michael
> gurstein
> Gesendet: Montag, 15. April 2013 10:39
> An: governance at lists.igcaucus.org<mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org>; 'Anriette Esterhuysen'; 'Kettemann,
> Matthias'
> Cc: 'parminder'
> Betreff: RE: AW: [governance] Internet as a commons/ public good; was,
> Conflicts in Internet Governance
>
>
>
> I sent this email below just after Christmas last year so folks must
> have missed it... The application of the concept of a "global public
> good" to the Internet was discussed at some length as part of a
> broader re-definition of global public goods initiated through the
> UNDP and the Human Development Report and particularly in the work of the German/UN economist Inge Kaul.
> (this below was as part of an on-going discussion with Michael Lebrant
> covering much the same ground as is being covered here.
>
>
>
> M
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------
>
> From: michael gurstein [mailto:gurstein at gmail.com]
>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 9:20 AM
>
> To: 'Michael Leibrandt'; 'governance at lists.igcaucus.org'
>
> Subject: RE: [governance] FW: Towards the Internet as a Global Public Good:
> A Seasonal Wish to One and All:
>
>
>
> Hi Michael,
>
>
>
> Thanks for raising the issues that you do. I`m not an economist but
> in reviewing your comments I realize that I should have mentioned in
> the blogpost that rather than referring to the mainstream perspective
> on Global Public Goods (GPG) (as evidenced by the Wikipedia
> reference), my own thinking in this area was formed largely by the
> work of a Inge Kaul when and after she was working with the UNDP and
> specifically on the UN Human Development Report and the International Task Force on Global Public Goods.
>
>
>
> In her discussion, rather than seeing GPG as a ``market failure``
> counterpart to private (market) goods, as neo-classical economists
> would have it, she developed (through linking her discussion to Ostrom
> among
> others) a ``positive`` perspective on GPG`s as an element in achieving
> what she calls active policy driven objectives (and specifically
> linking these with civil society and the broad public interest
> including in areas of global social and economic justice and
> environmental management). I believe that her approach to GPG`s is
> directly consistent with a public interest approach to the global development and ``management`` of the Internet.
>
>
>
> http://www.yorku.ca/drache/talks/pdf/apd_kaulfin.pdf (Note that I`ve
> updated my GPG link in the blogpost.)
>
>
>
> Best,
>
>
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org<mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org>
> [mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] On Behalf Of Anriette
> Esterhuysen
> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 1:18 AM
> To: governance at lists.igcaucus.org<mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org>; Kettemann, Matthias
> (matthias.kettemann at uni-graz.at<mailto:matthias.kettemann at uni-graz.at>)
> Cc: parminder
> Subject: Re: AW: [governance] Internet as a commons/ public good; was,
> Conflicts in Internet Governance
>
>
>
> Dear Matthias, Parminder and all (thanks for changing the subject-line
>
> Parminder)
>
>
>
> Matthias, yes.. I think this is the kind of conceptual debate that we
> need to have.
>
>
>
> Parminder, I like the idea of civil society adopting a 'definition'.
> But we need to be sure it is one that is robust enough to be used from
> social, economic and legal perspectives. So perhaps we need some
> debate and discussion and then come back to your proposed text.
>
>
>
> Whenever I raise the idea of the internet as a 'global public good'
>
> people make similar points to those made by Matthias - and I take
> these seriously. At the same time I believe that there is a strong
> movement towards the internet being becoming non-exclusive and non-rivalrous in use.
> Is that not what we want? So perhaps I am saying I want the internet
> to be a global public good and to be accepted as such - if not now, in
> the near future.
>
>
>
> I sometimes use the rather meaningless term 'public-good-like' entity.
>
> Your suggestion makes sense to me, Matthias:
>
>
>
> "Would it make more sense to say that the Internet's stability,
> functionality and security (understood as encompassing human
>
> rights-sensitivity) is a global public good? Or is that distinction
> only conceptually interesting."
>
>
>
> It is conceptually interesting. The internet is not 'just one thing',
> as Avri and Parminder's definitions capture. That adds conceptual and
> legal difficulties. But in terms of the role it plays in cultural,
> social, economic, political and individual life' it has a distinct identity.
>
>
>
> We need a debate that involves legal people, activists, and economists.
>
> But I believe we should not back down on developing such a definition
> and advocating for its adoption. Many people will say it is not
> possible, or will actively not want it. But I believe it is the key to
> being able to consolidate IG principles, and also to have a clearer
> understanding of the 'respective' and diverse roles of stakeholders
> referred to in WSIS documents.
>
>
>
> In the longer term I think arriving at such an understanding is
> necessary not just to protect the public interest (which does mean
> different things to different people, but I won't go there now ) and
> to preserve what we are referring to as the internet 'commons', but
> also to help create and maintain a level playing field for the large
> variety and number of private sector entities and social enterprises that operate on or through the internet.
>
>
>
> Anriette
>
>
>
>
>
> On 15/04/2013 08:44, Kettemann, Matthias
>
> (matthias.kettemann at uni-graz.at<mailto:matthias.kettemann at uni-graz.at>) wrote:
>
>> Dear all,
>
>>
>
>> I think we can gain much from the debate of what the Internet is - we
>> probably won't find consensus, but we will understand the Internet better.
>
>>
>
>> International law is charged, inter alia, with regulating global
>> public goods. These are usually defined as non-exclusive and exhibit
>> non-rivalry in the usage. Now, people can be (and unfortunately are
>> being) excluded from (usage of) the Internet. (The non-rivalry aspect
>> can be interesting as an argument against artificially limiting
>> domain name resources and as a argument to strengthen net neutrality).
>
>>
>
>> So I have some problems with stating that the Internet is just one
>> global public good like air. Safeguarding the Internet necessitates
>> action; safeguarding air and water prima facie not - of corse, once
>> they are polluted, remedial action is required.
>
>>
>
>> Would it make more sense to say that the Internet's stability,
>> functionality and security (understood as encompassing human
>> rights-sensitivity) is a global public good? Or is that distinction
>> only conceptually interesting?
>
>>
>
>> Kind regards
>
>> Matthias
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> Von: governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org<mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org>
>
>> [mailto:governance-request at lists.igcaucus.org] Im Auftrag von
>
>> parminder
>
>> Gesendet: Montag, 15. April 2013 06:51
>
>> An: governance at lists.igcaucus.org<mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org>
>
>> Betreff: [governance] Internet as a commons/ public good; was,
>
>> Conflicts in Internet Governance
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> Anriette/ All
>
>>
>
>> I find this posting, and later ones in the thread very interesting.
>
>> Indeed a good amount of confusion in this group's internal
>
>> interactions owe to the fact that while we have some broad process
>
>> rules, we have very little in terms of substance that we can take as
>> a
>
>> starting point for our political/ advocacy work. Recognising the
>
>> Internet as a commons/ public good, and seeking that its basic
>
>> governance principles flow from such a basic understanding of the
>
>> Internet, is good and useful basic agreement to try to reach for this
>
>> group,
>
>>
>
>> I propose that the caucus adopts this as a/ the basic principle for
>> IGC's political/ advocacy work.
>
>>
>
>> I propose that we even go beyond and adopt a working definition of
>> the Internet, absence of which itself has been identified as a major
>> problem that renders many of our discussions/ positions here unclear.
>> Avri proposes the following definition, which I find very encouraging....
>
>> "Internet as an emergent, and emerging, reality consisting of
>> hardware, protocols and software, and human intentionality brought
>> together by a common set of design principles and constrained by
>> policies fashioned by the stakeholders."
>
>>
>
>> I propose small modifications to it
>
>> "Internet as an emergent, and emerging, reality consisting of
>> hardware, protocols and software, human intentionality, and a new
>> kind of social spatiality, brought together by a common set of design
>> principles and constrained by policies fashioned by due democratic processes."
>
>>
>
>> So what I propose for this caucus to adopt is as follows "We
>> recognise
>
>> the Internet as an emergent, and emerging, reality consisting of
>> hardware, protocols and software, human intentionality, and a new
>> kind of social spatiality, brought together by a common set of design
>> principles and constrained by policies fashioned by due democratic
>> processes. Accordingly, the Internet is to be considered as a global
>> commons and a global public good. The design principles and policies
>> that constitute the governance of the Internet should must flow from
>> such recognition of the Internet as a commons and a public good."
>
>> The text can of course be improved a lot, but I thought it is good to
>> put forward something that the caucus can work upon...
>
>>
>
>> parminder
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> On Sunday 14 April 2013 10:28 PM, Anriette Esterhuysen wrote:
>
>>
>
>> The question is, what is needed to protect and strengthen the
>> internet
>
>>
>
>> commons?
>
>>
>
>> As Avri points out, governments have assisted the theft of the commons.
>
>>
>
>> I would say that the form that this assistance takes ranges from lack
>
>> of
>
>>
>
>> the basic regulation that is needed to protect it to active
>> protection
>
>>
>
>> of certain vested interests. That is why the notion of an 'unregulated'
>
>>
>
>> internet is so problematic and why the notion of an open and
>
>> unregulated
>
>>
>
>> internet can so easily be a contradiction in terms.
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> There needs to be some basic rules that makes sure that the internet
>
>>
>
>> remains 'open and free' in a broad sense.
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> The risks, or the challenges related to this is that many governments
>
>>
>
>> approach regulation of the internet not from the perspective of
>
>>
>
>> protecting it as a commons, but from the perspective of enabling them
>
>> to
>
>>
>
>> exercise more control over internet content and use, and user behaviour.
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> I remain convinced that one of the difficulties in internet
>> governance
>
>>
>
>> is that there is a conceptual/principle deficit of some kind. Not so
>
>>
>
>> much statement of principles that affirm freedom of expression,
>
>>
>
>> 'net-neutrality', etc.. Those are good....
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> I think they real deficit is in how the internet is defined, or what
>
>>
>
>> kind of entity we understand it to be.
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> When the management and supply of water is being regulated there are
>
>>
>
>> also lots of contestation. For example between mines, communities who
>
>>
>
>> live in the catchment area, communities who live downstream subject
>> to
>
>>
>
>> seasonal flooding, cities and commercial farms who need dams, and
>
>> nature
>
>>
>
>> conservation and reservers, where traditional seasonal flooding is
>
>> often
>
>>
>
>> essential to the survival of many species.
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> Policy would generally try to understand and balance all these
>
>> interests
>
>>
>
>> and will be premised on a common understanding that water is a common
>
>>
>
>> resource. The public interest principles will be fairly easily
>
>>
>
>> understood by most that are involved water policy and regulation. But
>
>>
>
>> there will be lots of argument about how it is managed, and used and
>
>>
>
>> often the wrong decisions will be made.
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> I just had a glance at the CGI.br principles and the IRP 10
>> principles
>
>>
>
>> and neither statement contains anything that suggests what the
>
>> internet
>
>>
>
>> - from the perspective of it being a 'commons' or a public good - is.
>
>> I
>
>>
>
>> know I have been dwelling on this ONE KEY 'principle' deficit for a
>
>>
>
>> while... but I just can't give thinking it is at the root of the
>
>>
>
>> difficulties we have in addressing the conflicts of interest in
>
>> internet
>
>>
>
>> governance.
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> Anriette
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> On 14/04/2013 02:50, Avri Doria wrote:
>
>>
>
>> All of the Internet, like the land world before it, was once commons.
>> Then, as before, the rich, the powerful and greedy, with the
>> assistance of the governments they bought, and continue to buy, began
>> to misappropriate those commons and called it property. Each day
>> more of that commons its stolen. Each day more of the linguistic
>> commons is stolen and called intellectual property. The Internet
>> commons is almost gone. This its what government do best - with some
>> very few exceptions - assist in the theft of the commons.
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> I have no problem with those who create art or new Internet spaces
>> enjoying the fruits of their creativity and inventiveness. A
>> neologism may be owned. A new Internet space may be owned. But the
>> language itself or the Internet should not be.
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> Diego Rafael Canabarro
>> <diegocanabarro at gmail.com<mailto:diegocanabarro at gmail.com>><mailto:diegocanabarro at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> At the International Studies Association Annual Convention last week
>
>> in
>
>>
>
>> San
>
>>
>
>> Francisco, an official from the US Department of State said: "there's
>
>>
>
>> no
>
>>
>
>> commons on cyberspace". That perception is closely related to the
>
>>
>
>> conflict
>
>>
>
>> presented by Mr. Perry bellow in this thread. I'm still struggling
>
>> with
>
>>
>
>> that assertion.
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 12:20 PM, Norbert Bollow
>> <nb at bollow.ch<mailto:nb at bollow.ch>><mailto:nb at bollow.ch> wrote:
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> Roland Perry
>> <roland at internetpolicyagency.com<mailto:roland at internetpolicyagency.com>><mailto:roland at internetpolicyagency.
>> com>
>> wrote:
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> One of the most significant I'm aware of (and I hope this is within
>
>>
>
>> the remit of your question):
>
>>
>
>> It definitely is, and it's a conflict that I have not been
>
>>
>
>> sufficiently
>
>>
>
>> conscious of, so thank you very much for pointing this out!
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> Greetings,
>
>>
>
>> Norbert
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> The private sector has built extensive
>
>>
>
>> networks [fixed and mobile] using $billons of investment on which
>
>>
>
>> their shareholders [many of whom are the consumers' pension funds]
>
>>
>
>> expect a return, versus many customers who feel entitled to have
>
>>
>
>> unlimited usage for a relatively trivial monthly payment (which
>
>>
>
>> they
>
>>
>
>> sometimes dress up as "Network Neutrality").
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> I post this not to support either of the above points of view, but
>
>>
>
>> merely to inform readers of the conflict it unquestionably
>
>>
>
>> represents.
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>
>>
>
>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> governance at lists.igcaucus.org<mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org<mailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org%3cmailto:governance at lists.igcaucus.org>>
>
>>
>
>> To be removed from the list, visit:
>
>>
>
>> http://www.igcaucus.org/unsubscribing
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> For all other list information and functions, see:
>
>>
>
>> http://lists.igcaucus.org/info/governance
>
>>
>
>> To edit your profile and to find the IGC's charter, see:
>
>>
>
>> http://www.igcaucus.org/
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> Translate this email: http://translate.google.com/translate_t
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> --
>
>>
>
>> Diego R. Canabarro
>
>>
>
>> http://lattes.cnpq.br/4980585945314597
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> --
>
>>
>
>> diego.canabarro [at] ufrgs.br
>
>>
>
>> diego [at] pubpol.umass.edu
>
>>
>
>> MSN: diegocanabarro [at] gmail.com
>
>>
>
>> Skype: diegocanabarro
>
>>
>
>> Cell # +55-51-9244-3425 (Brasil) / +1-413-362-0133 (USA)
>
>>
>
>> --
>
>>
>
>> Avri Doria
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
>
> anriette esterhuysen anriette at apc.org<mailto:anriette at apc.org>
>
> executive director, association for progressive communications
> www.apc.org<http://www.apc.org> po box 29755, melville 2109 south africa tel/fax +27 11
> 726 1692
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
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