[governance] Parminder's exchange with Bertrand

Sat Feb 27 17:36:33 EST 2010

Wow, that takes me back.  It's been 30 years or so since anyone quoted
Popper at me... I'm more as you perhaps expect, of the Adorno, Kuhn,
Feyerabend persuasion but I'll do raised (historiographic) muskets with you
at a quad of your choice (my preference is the Trinity Commons) at daybreak
any fine spring morning of your choice.

Of course I missed Whitehead but his tradition lived on...

Collingwood to the ready... 

MBG

-----Original Message-----
From: Milton L Mueller [mailto:mueller at syr.edu] 
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 1:59 PM
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org; michael gurstein
Subject: RE: [governance] Parminder's exchange with Bertrand

Michael,
There's actually no logical contradiction between the two positions you
cite. I'd suggest you do some readings on the debate over methodological
individualism (MI) in the social sciences. 
You will discover that all serious social scientists who contest MI will
concede, at the very least, that any collectivity is in the end composed of
individual human beings; and you will discover that all serious social
scientists who support MI will concede that there are collective phenomena
in which the group is more than the sum of its parts. The debate is about
the degree to which one attributes an independent existence to the
collective unit or tries to explain it in terms of the interactions of
individuals. 

What's more interesting about your intervention is that you go after me but
not Avri, who you could have accused of the same contradiction in reverse.
What the heck, maybe I should invoke Hitler again to put an end to this. 

--MM
________________________________________
From: michael gurstein [gurstein at gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 9:06 PM
To: governance at lists.cpsr.org
Subject: FW: [governance] Parminder's exchange with Bertrand

Speaking of contradictions:

MM(1): Any collectivity is in the end composed of individual human beings.
MM(2): No one who seriously studies that history can explain what happened
in those societies by reference to a malevolent individual alone.

(And I know that I'm quoting out of context etc.etc. but the problem with
taking an absolutist position (MM1) is that one very quickly runs into
internal contradictions in any encounter with the real world (MM2).

MbG

-----Original Message-----
From: Milton L Mueller [mailto:mueller at syr.edu]
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 4:36 AM
To: 'governance at lists.cpsr.org'; 'Avri Doria'
Subject: RE: [governance] Parminder's exchange with Bertrand

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Avri Doria [mailto:avri at psg.com]
>
> you have got to be kidding.
>
> maybe it depends on the type of historiography one is partial to and
> as far as i can tell unless one believes in the relatively marxist 
> historical moment sort of historical explanation, one is stuck with 
> the great man of history explanation.

I think your view is incredibly unrealistic, even bizarre. Authoritarian
monsters like Hitler, Mao, Stalin can only do what they do by playing groups
off against each other, by claiming for themselves the ability to represent
and enact collective ideals, and by seizing collective capabilities. No one
who seriously studies that history can explain what happened in those
societies by reference to a malevolent individual alone. They capitalize on
and help to create group animosities and loyalties. How do you get people to
massacre Jews without group loyalties and prejudices, us against them? How
do you legitimize wars and get soldiers to fight and kill people they don't
know without appeal to things like "patriotism," duty to society and the
state, cultural or racial differences? This has nothing to do with Marxist
historicism, which posits laws of history independent of individuals.

> it is individuals, natural and corporate, who commit all the crimes -
> at the boundary of the individual is where murder,

Ah I see, so you are not only unwilling to assign individuals rights, and
place them at the center of concern for well being, you are also willing to
assign to them responsibility for all crimes.

Is the flaw in your position not obvious? Please explain to me how
individuals qua individuals are responsible for all the world's evils but
individuals as members of groups suddenly become angels who free themselves
from all this iniquity. I will be interested in this explanation.

> but without an individual in his very own individual voice or very own
> trigger finger nothing like WW2 or Vietnam or Iraq or .... could ever 
> happen.

Utter rubbish. those triggers get pulled because of tremendous social
pressures, not to mention massive levels of state taxation and coercion.
They operate at the group level. You and I can war against each other as
individuals, but there is no way our feuds can reach the destructive scale
of modern warfare unless we pull into the picture collective differences and
animosities and collective capabilities.

> as one of those who yammer about groups being the only way to go

And you are ignoring my main point: for every group, there are non-members
of the group, outsiders, people who are excluded and different from the
group and its identity. Even a group formed with the most benevolent of
intentions tends to view outsiders suspiciously and to exclude.

You don't see that as having anything to do with the conflicts and problems
of human history? Remarkable.

Your view is so one-sided. As an advocate of individual rights, I have no
problem recognizing and dealing with the problems that abusive individual
action can cause. I have trouble understanding how someone can fail to
recognize any threat or issues stemming from group boundaries and
differences.

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