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<font face="Verdana">Thanks Tamir<br>
<br>
You are chipping at my central argument from many different
directions, in a manner which IMHO is tangential to the main issue
I propose for consideration. However, I will still respond to all
of them. But so that the main issue does not get lost in all the
endless discussion of the main traits and fine distinctions
between many different bodies, which btw would always be there, I
present my main proposal again below.<br>
<br>
Leave aside whether OECD's CDEP (Committee on Digital Economy
Policy) facilitates treaties or not, and other such finer points;
my proposition is simple. Are you, and others here, ready to have
a Internet policy body in the UN which *exactly* of the same
mandate (I am sure that you wont have problem in adding a more bit
of social mandate to the economic one, that is harmless, right) as
the OECD's CDEP and have the *exact* same method of stakeholder
engagement/ participation? <br>
<br>
And as said we have facing us the UN WG on enhanced cooperation
which should begun functioning soon where civil society would need
to put its proposals and respond to others (BTW, do note that this
UN WG has much better form of other stakeholder participation that
any OECD or CoE body, and it is UN... I am ready to hear anyone
who disagrees with this claim.) <br>
<br>
Therefore, I hope CS groups here will have a response to this
question.<br>
<br>
And indeed, if the response is no, I would like to know, why
so..If the justification is that they are not ready for a
multilateral (ML) Internet policy related body in the UN (as Lea
says), the next question is, are these groups ready to make a
statement to the forthcoming OECD ministerial that OECD's CDEP is
a ML body and not a MS one, and this is no way to make Internet
policies, more so when OED countries use the MSism ruse to block
any progress towards development of Internet related policies,
and/or the connected work of discussions, analysis, and so on. <br>
<br>
........................... ............................. <br>
<br>
I have put a line above to separate the above clear questions from
the discussion below, so that their specificity and clarity is not
lost. <br>
<br>
Now, I'd try to respond to your various points.<br>
<br>
1. You say OECD's CDEP does not have the mandate to facilitate
treaties. (Apart from, as above, I am ready to have a UN committee
with exactly the same mandate, treaty facilitation or not) do
remember that treaties are specific instruments bearing the
authority of their signatories. They may employ any convenient
body for help, and later to be the custodian of them. None of OECD
committees have an express mandate of treaty facilitation , but
OECD has done treaties, whereby it is obvious that the
corresponding committee in any case facilitated it.
Correspondingly, there is no doubt that if and when OECD wants to
have a treaty on an Internet related issue, it will be facilitated
by CDEP </font><font face="Verdana">( I read CDEP's objectives 2
and 3-i as quite enough to take such a role)</font><font
face="Verdana">... Now, see for instance<a
href="http://portal.unesco.org/en/ev.php-URL_ID=15244&URL_DO=DO_TOPIC&URL_SECTION=201.html">
the mandate of the UNESCO</a>, there is no mention of treaties,
but then UNESCO has facilitated numerous treaties. So, I consider
your this point as rather weak. <br>
<br>
2. Next, you take the defence that CDEP has been around for a long
time, and so its case is different. As you know, it was
established 2-3 years ago changing the name and (considerable)
part of the mandate of an earlier committee. Apart from other
considerable changes of mandate, do you note, and I made this
point earlier, that it is the first time that it declares that it
makes Internet policy in a multistakeholder (MS)</font><font
face="Verdana"> fashion</font><font face="Verdana">. Was this
change of mandate discussed with its CS advisory committee? if
not, in any case it is a very bad case of MS non participation.
And if inputs were indeed taken, then apparently the CS advisory
group must have agreed that CDEP is a MS body... That happened
just 2-3 years ago. Not too long ago! Is the CS advisory group not
answerable then why they agreed to let CDEP call itself MS but
around the same time and afterwards the same CS groups would not
accept a similar arrangement at the UN as MS... Is this not
hypocrisy... What kind of arguments can hide that fact. And
therefore, CDEP has always been there itself is weak argument in
this particular argument. <br>
<br>
3. You say CoE clearly makes treaties, but then for it you put
forward other defences. Apart from the fact that OECD also makes
treaties even if less often that CoE, this is a slippery argument
to change the defences for CoE to another set of unsubstantiated
and weak one... OF course UN also has its human rights instruments
and human rights courts. Just last week it is a UN body which gave
its judgement on Assange's inappropriate confinement and not a CoE
body.... But then there will always be some difference between one
thing and another, one situation and the next. But the arguments
in this case too IMHO do not add up..<br>
<br>
4. You (and others) give all kinds of arguments in defence of OECD
and CoE, but it is very disappointing that you miss (side step?)
the simple, straight -forward, and powerful issue of democracy,
and equal representation of all people, regions and countries. Is
it a small point which we can just brush aside? In no other area
of global governance, global civil society does such a thing.
Quite the opposite, they are mostly solidly with developing
regions and countries, where the most excluded and marginalised
reside. Is it not civil society's job to preponderantly represent
these people? And if someone has to be given the benefit of doubt,
it has to be these people, and the regions and groups from which
they come, but the club of rich countries.<br>
<br>
5. You have begun to bring in the argument of human rights record
of different countries and regions ( I expect this argument to
become more prominent as other defensive arguments fall by the
wayside). Yes, it is important, but we also know the human rights
violations by the rich countries, even in civil and political
rights areas, just think Snowden and Assange, but then there is
this big area of social, economic and cultural rights, which it
seems we just want to fully forget. It is the neoliberal order
being put together by the rich countries that is responsible for
untold miseries and deprivations the world over, and the Internet
and IG are strongly implicated in this process. What about these
violations of rights, and who is doing them most? Forums where all
countries are present have certainly a much better record than
rich country clubs if we look at the whole set of human rights
together. I am happy to discuss this point further is you like.<br>
<br>
6. Lastly, you contend, "...</font><font face="Verdana">the civil
society presence at the OECD is global. You, yourself, are a
member of the stakeholder group, let's not forget.". I am there
just to observe, and do not undertake any participation at all.
(If I did, id be arguing these things over there which I havent.)
Because I dont find this manner of global inclusion legitimate,
when all countries are not represented, and only the richest ones
are. It is anathema to me. I did accept the invitation to the
Seoul OECD ministerial and was there when the CS advisory body was
formed. I insisted on the inclusion of this sentence in the CS
Seoul declaration, which is supposed to be the founding doc of the
OECD's CS committee. "</font>Global Internet policy-making should
involve equal participation of all people, countries, and
stakeholders." However, I can see that apparently the group has
completely forgotten about this part of their founding document, and
plans to do nothing about it. I do keep reminding them often, as I
am doing currently, but with no response. <br>
<br>
regards<br>
parminder<br>
<br>
PS: Since IRP group is also cc ed, let me remind everyone that this
group is right now inputting into CoE's IG strategic doc, so maybe
they may want to tell them what is the right way in their estimation
of MS and not ML Internet policy making as the CoE (like everyone
else) does today... <br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Sunday 21 February 2016 03:48 AM,
Tamir Israel wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:56C8E649.9020307@cippic.ca" type="cite">
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Hi Parminder,<br>
<br>
Thanks again for the detailed reply and again I apologize for the
delayed response. I'll respond to some of what you say in line,
but I have not been following WSIS10+, so will leave those
elements for others to address..<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/8/2016 10:02 AM, parminder
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:56B8ADEE.5010102@itforchange.net"
type="cite">
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The first point in my response was about the nature of UN based
proposals for Internet related policy making, which I insist
remain on the table. we especially cannot dodge them in view of
the new UN WG on enhanced cooperation which will begin working
later this year. In that regard my question is: <br>
<br>
What is the response of civil society groups here to the
proposal to institute an Internet policy development model in
the UN which is exactly, repeat, exactly, the same as the CDEP
process in the OECD (whereby the only difference will be that
instead of the 34 richest countries making policy, there will
the full list of 190 or so, or a rotating smaller representative
group of them, plus a clear institutionalised linkage to the
IGF)?<br>
<br>
The second, complimentary question is, as follows:<br>
<br>
The only logical and defensible reason for not accepting the
above proposal that I can think of is that such a proposal about
does not represent a mutistakeholder model of Internet policy
making, and the major civil society groups and persons here will
only accept a multistakeholder model of policy making (whatever
it is). <br>
<br>
Fair enough. In that case, is there a proposal to make this case
to the forthcoming OECD ministerial organised around the work of
its Committee on Digital Economy Policy (which is OECD's
Internet policy making organ)? I mean to at least clearly say,
in a specific statement, to the ministerial that we do not
accept their model of Internet policy making, since it is not
multistakeholder (and also offer a multistakeholder option,
which if you refuse their model, of course they'd ask for). This
is the first ministerial after the CDEP was formed with a
re-adopted mandate, which for the first time claims that it
develops policy through a 'multistakeholder process'. Since,
the civil society groups failed to raise this issue when the
CDEP was formed 2 years back and they were asked for their
inputs, would they want to now correct their mistake, and take
this issue up in the forthcoming public meeting of the OECD
ministrial? <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote cite="mid:56B8ADEE.5010102@itforchange.net"
type="cite"> If not, why so? Where do their multistakeholderist
energies, which are to be seen to be believed when the arena is
the UN, disappear in front of the comity of the richest
countries of the world ? Whom they join in the first place in
the UN arena to sing multistakeholderist paeans. Why not expose
this extreme hypocrisy of theirs, which is so easily done, they
would not have words to come back with, which, excuse my
slipping into cynicism, I btw i suspect is why most groups dont
do it. we cant do such things to our friends, right!<br>
</blockquote>
CDEP has been around for a very very long time, it was merely
renamed from ICCP a few years back, without any real change in
orientation or scope of operation. There have been several
ministerials over the years, and in some of these, governance
issues were front and center. For example, in the Seoul
Ministerial (which has not even reached its 10 year milestone yet,
to put things in perspective) governance was the main topic of
discussion and where civil society's standing and role at CDEP
(then ICCP) was formalized, providing an official and independent
channel for civil society input into OECD internet-related
policy-making. This was a big step, and one that was taken not too
long ago. Governance is not a central issue in each and every
ministerial, nor should it be. <br>
<br>
In addition, in my own experience, governance issues have come up
at CDEP many times, but mostly on a case by case basis where the
process has broken down one way or another. This has led to some
improvements, eg as I noted in my previous email, sometimes the
civil society stakeholder group can formulate its differing views
regarding an OECD policy paper, and these will be incorporated
into the formal release of the document. Given the types of things
that come out of CDEP, this is a useful and effective remedy.
Those types of tweaks have been effective, and the OECD has (again
in my experience) been generally responsive, which has likely
further forestalled calls for broad-ranged changes. <br>
<br>
I should note briefly that in terms of civil society / stakeholder
engagement, at least, the civil society presence at the OECD is
global. You, yourself, are a member of the stakeholder group,
let's not forget. Finally, while I'm not sure there is an
immediate need for tectonic shifts in the CDEP's stakeholder model
as it's evolved in the past few years since the seoul ministerial,
I would still not recommend the model for any body that has a
treaty-coordination role. <br>
<blockquote cite="mid:56B8ADEE.5010102@itforchange.net"
type="cite"> <br>
In the CS advisory group to the OECD's CDEP, one person did
propose that it should seek greater multistakeholderism in
CDEP's policy making processes, but this proposal was made light
of by others, seeking focus on substantive issues instead!! Why
such shyness with the OECD, when the same groups are never short
on reprimanding UN bodies - extant or proposed, on this matter?
<br>
</blockquote>
I'm not very involved in this ministerial, but I have seen one
proposal to have a panel on governance. It came late in the day,
so I don't know if it'll make the cut, but the point is this one
panel would not be enough to dramatically fix any deficiencies in
the OECD process. I would think the proposal for dramatic reform
you mention would have to be carefully formulated ahead of time,
and this groundwork has not been done. Perhaps it's because the
OECD has tended to be fairly responsive to multi stakeholder
concerns when these come up, as noted above. These case by case
improvements to the stakeholder model have proven an efficient and
effective way of advancing matters, so the impetus for dramatic
change so soon on the heels of the seoul ministerial has been low.
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:56B8ADEE.5010102@itforchange.net"
type="cite"> <br>
The job of civil society is to speak up to the most powerful,
not be in convenient alliances with them. <br>
<br>
Also, CoE's Internet policy mechanism is "right now" seeking
civil society input into their IG strategy.... It makes policy
frameworks in a similar manner as OCED (but apparently with less
formal stakeholder systems). Why not tell them, this is what we
think is multistakholder policy making, and we would expect CoE
to adopt it. That is our input, or at least one of the inputs,
to their IG strategy (It is CoE's treaty on cyber crime that is
often pushed post facto as the 'gold standards' for developing
countries to accede to. A cursory search throws up another one
on 'automatic processing of individual data'. But somehow
policy, even hard law based, processes of the 'good countries'
done in fully multi-lateral ways seem to completely fall off
civil society's radar.)Â )<br>
</blockquote>
CoE is not the same as OECD's CDEP. For one thing, in spite of
your repeated claims, CDEP does not have any sort of treaty
coordination role (a role, I note, that you would retain for your
UN coordination body). Very few CDEP outputs (a handful over the
course of decades) are even in a format that would be conducive to
coordinating a treaty, most are policy-like reports, raw data
analysis or maybe at most general policy statements. I cannot
think of one CDEP output that has in fact become a treaty. The
closest might be the Privacy Guidelines, which have a format that
might be conducive to a treaty-like instrument. These are an
exception to the rule, though, and moreover they have not been
implemented by some OECD countries (let alone formed the basis for
an international treaty). In this regard, it largely replicates
what ITU-D already does which is create non-binding policy reports
and data analysis.<br>
<br>
CoE by contrast is, as you say, a treaty coordinating body.
However, while contributing to the international dialogue on
Internet issues (like any other regional or national body), CoE is
somewhat contiguous with the EU system and, moreover, has much
stronger democratic mechanisms and safeguards than are available
at the UN, including a non-partisan parliamentary system, judicial
system and binding over-arching human rights instrument. Again,
there are no comparators at the UN level that could mitigate the
harms that might result from a purely state-led Internet
treaty-coordination body, so this, too, would not work as a model.
(not to belittle the UN, just to say that you would want a
stronger, truly stakeholder makeup to counteract this lack). That
being said, I'm not very active at CoE, so I would not want to
speak to the efficacy of that model and whether it does or does
not need to improve in terms of its multi-stakeholder formats.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Tamir<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:56B8ADEE.5010102@itforchange.net"
type="cite"> <br>
It is time for those who occupy the space of the global civil
society working in the IG area to engage with these
uncomfortable questions. They would not be able to retain global
legitimacy if they do not...<br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Sunday 07 February 2016 03:27
PM, parminder wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:56B71505.6040409@itforchange.net"
type="cite">
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<font face="Verdana">Dear Tamir<br>
<br>
Thanks for your response, which is the most well argued and
comprehensive one that I have ever received for this
question that I have asked several times in the last many
years. So thanks again.<br>
<br>
There is another important aspect of your email that I would
like to respond to but let me first do so for<br>
<br>
</font>
<blockquote><font face="Verdana">"</font><font face="Verdana">Now,
it may be that the IT 4 Change vision for CIRP was nothing
like this, or that these elements could have been stripped
from the CIRP proposal -- and your account suggests this
was proposed at a later stage (perhaps too late?) -- but
as presented these command and control elements seemed as
integral if not primary functions. Most, if not all of the
commentary regarding the CIRP proposal related to this
particular aspect of the proposal, which is the fact that
it would bring about multi-lateral control as opposed to
simply creating yet one more policy-making venue."</font><br>
</blockquote>
<font face="Verdana"> I will come to IT for Change part the
last bec it is the least important thing here. <br>
<br>
The "command and control" aspect of CIRP that you point to
chiefly is about the ICANN oversight part (the treaty
facilitating aspect being common to OECD and CoE committees
and thus is symmetric ). Please note that the CIRP proposal
clearly says that it has picked CIRP's mandate items from
the institutional models suggested by the Working Group on
IG's report. This report clearly says that the oversight
role is the role currently undertaken by US Dept of
Commerce. Obviously, therefore the CIRP proposed only to
take up that role which is currently played by the US Dept
of commerce.<br>
<br>
The question then that I have for you; how is ICANN working
under the oversight of US government not a 'command and
control' structure, and I hear it always referred to as a
multistakeholder structure, but if the same role was played
together by all countries it became a 'command and control'
structure? (The current IANA transition process not being
relevant here bec it was not envisaged at the time that CIRP
was proposed and then roundly criticised). <br>
<br>
Second part: "</font><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana">these elements could have been stripped
from the CIRP proposal -- and your account suggests this
was proposed at a later stage (perhaps too late?)" (from
your email below.<br>
<br>
I have said this before, the proposal itself said, we are
open to discussing, the Indian gov rep at Nairobi IGF,
immediately after the proposal as made, said, we are open
to discuss and change it, and at the next CSTD meeting,
India again said we are open to change it and invited
ideas. No response, other than, the whole thing should
simply be abandoned. Most importantly, India actually
separated the oversight part from that for 'other public
policy making' in its submission to the UN Working Group
on Enhanced Cooperation whose precise mandate was to come
up with an appropriate global Internet governance related
institutional architecture, esp for 'public policy making'
plus ICANN oversight. Civil society members were in there
in that WG, and those outside made written submissions,
over two rounds, but any proposal to have an OECD kind of
Internet related public policy mechanism remained fully
ignored, and considered as multilateralist and therefore
evil... <br>
<br>
So, I cannot see how you and others decide that it "was
too late"... The right to make the rules of game, and what
is the right time, what is the right way to propose a
thing, and so on, is one of the biggest forms of hegemonic
power.... I dont accept it. The proposal still stands
today, you, and others, need to comment on it as it is
being proposed to you, as I am proposing to you, and not
take the cover of, that was the wrong time, and the wrong
way, and so on...<br>
</font><br>
As I said, the WG on enhanced cooperation is being
reconstituted, you and others here are global players in the
IG space by choice and profession; my question to you all
is, what is your response to my proposal (forget others) to
develop a Internet related public policy development
mechanism inside the UN "on the exact model" as it happens
in the OECD. I will await yours and other people's response.
And if I do not get it, keep asking this question. This is
about the denial of the right of self determination and
right of democratic participation of the huge majority of
the world's population (non OECD countries). A right, which
in view is, even prior to all other rights, a right which
determines what rights are... <br>
<br>
Lastly, your comment on ITfC's positions: yes, we have
always asked for an OECD like Internet related policy
mechanism in the UN, in the exact model of how it works in
the OECD, where it gets called as a multistakeholder model.
For ICANN oversight we has for a different kind of model.
Not only ITfC but JNC (Just Net Coalition) has made similar
demands (see our submissions to the the NetMundial
Conference)... But both IT for Change and JNC get branded as
pro - multilateralism and much of the dominant civil society
here by contrast as pro multi-stakeholderism, while, as
should be obvious from this discussion, the *real and only
difference* is that we refuse to work with US- and
OCED-centric 'global' policy and IG models and ask instead
to have all countries equally involved, while preserving the
same amount of multistakeholder participation as it exists
in extant models today. (I say this with full authority, and
am ready to stand by it.) But the fact that the mentioned
labels have been so successfully affixed and sustained
speaks of the power of hegemonic discourse, even within the
so called civil society... I think we need to be doing
better than that. We need to be able to discuss things
opening, and provide answers to the questions that get asked
about our positions. If even civil society does not do it,
who would.<br>
<br>
parminder<br>
</font><br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Sunday 07 February 2016 05:40
AM, Tamir Israel wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:56B68B8A.3050205@cippic.ca" type="cite">
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Dear Parminder,<br>
<br>
I also apologize for the delayed response, and appreciate
your detailed answer.<br>
<br>
I definitely think there is room for improvement in the OECD
policy-making process and particularly on how it manages
multi-stakeholder input -- I would not want to leave a
contrary impression. There have certainly been opportunities
along the way to improve this process (some missed, some not
- it's most often raised on a case by case basis, which has
led to some improvements over time, at least in my opinion).<br>
<br>
I agree that many/most UN bodies do not generate binding
documents or activities (the ITU being a key exception), but
to my recollection the opposition to CIRP revolved around
those elements of the proposal that <i>did</i> envision
this type of binding action, which is far different from
what the OECD does. <br>
<br>
Specifically at issue from the CIRP proposal as it was
presented in the UN:<br>
<ul>
<li>Coordinate and oversee the bodies responsible for
technical and operational functioning of the Internet,
including global standards setting;</li>
<li>Facilitate negotiation of treaties, conventions and
agreements on Internet-related public policies;</li>
<li>Undertake arbitration and dispute resolution, where
necessary;</li>
</ul>
All of these envision binding action. It may be true that
some branches of the OECD do, indeed, lead to binding
treaty-making but this is neither part of the CDEP's mandate
nor has it ever been something the committee has done
historically in the context of Internet policy. By contrast,
facilitating treaties was a key listed objective for the
CIRP. Likewise, arbitration and dispute resolution is not
only an operationally binding activity, but is typically
only employed where there are hard underlying legal
obligations (ie treaties) between states that can lead to
disputes requiring adjudication.<br>
<br>
Finally, the proposal envisioned CIRP oversight of not just
ICANN, but all of the "bodies responsible for technical and
operational functioning of the Internet". This would
include, for example, the IETF and other technical standards
bodies alongside ICANN. <br>
<br>
The OECD multi-stakeholder model is not ideal, it is
probably closer to multi-lateral than most folks would like,
except that the civil society stakeholder group can decide
not to endorse any reports or policy instruments it
generates. As these instruments are not really binding
anyways, that form of dissent can be relatively meaningful
because it undermines the legitimacy of the policy
instrument and legitimacy is really the only currency it
has. As a venue I, at least, have found it worthwhile
engaging in, even though as with all policy processes it's
had its ups and downs. Still, it's not ideal and wholly
unsuited to generating binding policy as opposed to just
generating policy. It is nowhere near robust enough for
generating treaties or overseeing all the technical
communities and ICANN.<br>
<br>
Now, it may be that the IT 4 Change vision for CIRP was
nothing like this, or that these elements could have been
stripped from the CIRP proposal -- and your account suggests
this was proposed at a later stage (perhaps too late?) --
but as presented these command and control elements seemed
as integral if not primary functions. Most, if not all of
the commentary regarding the CIRP proposal related to this
particular aspect of the proposal, which is the fact that it
would bring about multi-lateral control as opposed to simply
creating yet one more policy-making venue.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Tamir<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/31/2016 10:13 AM,
parminder wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:56AE249C.4090202@itforchange.net"
type="cite">
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http-equiv="Content-Type">
<font face="Verdana">Dear Tamir<br>
<br>
A happy 2016 to you as well, and thanks for your
engagement with this important issue. <br>
Sorry for delay in coming back. Was preoccupied... <br>
</font><br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Thursday 28 January 2016
09:52 PM, Tamir Israel wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:56AA405B.2080901@cippic.ca"
type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
Dear Parminder,<br>
<br>
If I recall, objections to the 2011 multi-lateral,
inter-state Internet governance body actually arose from
the fact that the proposal did <i>not</i> follow the
OECD model. <br>
</blockquote>
<br>
I did some background work towards developing the 2011
CIRP proposal , and it was quite independent, and in the
open. IT for Change gave a <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.itforchange.net/sites/default/files/EC_statement-IT_for_Change2010.pdf">submission</a>
to 2010 UNDESA consultation on enhanced cooperation, and
then did a <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.itforchange.net/ibsa_RiodeJaneiro_Sep2011">background
paper</a> for IBSA meeting in Rio de Janeiro (both are
public documents), which sought a UN Body on Internet
policies taking from the OECD model. This OECD model was
specifically discussed in both these papers. The <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://itforchange.net/sites/default/files/ITfC/india_un_cirp_proposal_20111026.pdf">mandate
of CIRP</a> was very similar to that of OECD Committees,
including the Committee on Digital Policies (except on
one, significant point to be discussed later). The
stakeholder consultation process of CIRP was exactly taken
from the OECD model, plus a very important additional
element that "IGF will provide inputs to the CIRP" (OECD
having no such system and thus being deficient to that
extent in its multistakeholder content)<br>
<br>
See the mandate of OECD Committee on Digital Economy
Policy <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www2.oecd.org/OECDGROUPS/Bodies/ShowBodyView.aspx?BodyID=1837&BodyPID=8997&Lang=en&Book=">here</a>,
and that of its predecessor CICCP <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://webnet.oecd.org/OECDGROUPS/Bodies/ShowBodyView.aspx?BodyID=1837&BodyPID=7425&Lang=en&Book=">here</a>
. These committees were always supposed to make policy,
develop policy frameworks, and coordinate policies of
their members. Policy development is the central objective
of OECD, and this is written upfront on its <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.oecd.org/internet/ieconomy/">Internet
economy page</a> 'The OECD focuses on the development of
better policies..."<br>
<br>
When OECD inter gov agreements and treaties are developed,
like they exist in areas of tax avoidance, anti-bribery,
and so on, the respective committees facilitate such
agreement/ treaty development process.<br>
<br>
UN CIRP, as per India's proposal in 2011, was supposed to
basically be doing all this work. And, as can seen from a
reading of the proposal, with the same multistakeholder
model, only reinforcement through formation of an organic
linkage with the IGF and inviting its inputs. So, I will
like to ask you, how has India's CIRP proposal become a
multilateral, inter-state, IG body, while OECD's CDEP is a
multistakeholder, harmless body? That was my original
question.<br>
<br>
Now, if you want to focus all your argument against UN
CIRPs on just one of its mandate, which was of oversight
over ICANN, lets discuss it. <br>
<br>
Firstly, when IT for Change proposed a OECD like model we
suggested just policy development like OECD does and not
ICANN oversight for this body.... But I can see that when
India was making a proposal to the UN, it had to keep in
mind one of the most contested global IG issue, of the
US's unilateral oversight over ICANN, and the express
mandate of the WSIS that<big> "<font size="2"><big><font
size="2"><big><span style="font-weight: 400">all
governments should have an equal role and
responsibility for international Internet
governance and for ensuring the stability,
security and continuity of the Internet" (para
68), which directly speaks to equal oversight
role over ICANN, if there has to be one. Now,
India did not have time to make an elaborate
separate proposal for oversight transition,
and put that role under the proposed new
Committee for Internet Related Policies. In
doing so, it picked up the language from 2
Models of IG architecture put forward by the
(multistakeholder) <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.wgig.org/docs/WGIGREPORT.pdf">Working Group on IG</a> .
<br>
<br>
Further, do note that the India proposal as
read out in the UN clearly called<br>
<br>
"for the establishment of an openÂended working group under
the Commission on Science and Technology for Development for drawing up the detailed terms of reference for
CIRP, with a view to actualizing it within the next 18 months. We are open to the views and suggestions of
all
Member States, and stand ready to work with other delegations to carry forward this proposal, and thus seek tofill the serious gap in the implementation of the Tunis Agenda, by providing substance and content to the concept<br>
of Enhanced CoÂoperation enshrined in the Tunis Agenda"<br>
<br>
So, everyone was open for suggestions. One
should have just said, remove the oversight
role from this committee and the rest is ok...
Within a few months, at the next CSTD meeting,
India again said, tell us what issues you have
with our proposal and lets discuss them. No
response. Then in another few months, on its
own, in its submission to the CSTD WG on
Enhanced Cooperation, India separated the
issue and proposed mechanism for general
Internet related public policy development (as
OECD does) and the oversight role, on which
they asked for a separate discussion and
possible mechanism. <br>
<br>
But their proposal remained as much of a taboo
as before, to Northern government and big
business, but also to the tech community and
most of the civil society... And this is the
hypocrisy that I point to.</span></big></font></big></font></big>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:56AA405B.2080901@cippic.ca"
type="cite"> <br>
The OECD model is to produce non-binding soft law in a
multi-stakeholder context.</blockquote>
<br>
This is simple misuse of language, driven by partisan
hegemonic constructs, that people nilly willy fall prey
to.... I have linked to OECD documents above... See the
mandates and activities of UN bodies, like <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://en.unesco.org/about-us/introducing-unesco">UNESCO</a>,
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.who.int/about/en/">WHO</a>, <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.undp.org/content/undp/en/home/operations/about_us.html">UNDP</a>,
and if you are going for a committee (which is *not* the
dominant mode of UN working, it mostly functions through
separate bodies as listed) then maybe you can <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.unoosa.org/oosa/en/ourwork/copuos/index.html">see
this one</a> .... Most of these do more or less
exactly the same stuff as OECD committees do... How often
have you seen hard law coming out of the UN . And then
OECD also produces binding agreements... What and how is
what OECD does 'soft' and what UN does 'hard'... There is
no IMHO basis for your statement and claim. <br>
<br>
As for for your phrase 'in a multistakeholder context'
(referring to OECD), that is key to my question. How do
call the proposed UN CIRP be not multistakeholder and the
working of OECD committees multistakeholder??? I am sure
you would have read the CIRP proposal, but if you havent
it is again <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://itforchange.net/sites/default/files/ITfC/india_un_cirp_proposal_20111026.pdf">here</a>,
and has exactly the same stakeholder consultation
mechanism as OECD's CDEP. <br>
<br>
It is just not you who in your in your opening line of
this email denounced the proposed CIRP as multilateral
inter-state body, and are calling the OECD model as
multilateral, when, I repeat it for the hundredth time,
both have, by design, the same stakeholder participaiton
model. Almost everyone does.... An ISOC/ tech community
rep recently called the OECD process as
"multistakeholderism at work" ( <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.internetac.org/archives/category/contributions">http://www.internetac.org/archives/category/contributions</a>
). Such adulatory references, calling the OECD process,
multistakeholder, are commonplace.... But the same
people call a proposal form developing countries with the
same stakeholder participation model as multilateral,
inter gov, and so on...I think this is extremely unfair.
And a great example of hegemonic discourse at work,
extremely efficiently. <br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:56AA405B.2080901@cippic.ca"
type="cite"> On digital issues, civil society has direct
input into that policy-making process, and this has been
the case since the Seoul Ministerial in 2009 </blockquote>
<br>
I am on OECD's CS advisory group's elist and fully know
how such inputting takes place, and how much of it gets
accepcted... But in any case, as mentioned, exactly the
same process was proposed for the UN CIRP, including UN
funded meetings of advisory groups preceding the inter gov
council meetings, as happens with OECD. <br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:56AA405B.2080901@cippic.ca"
type="cite">(the recent formulation of the Committee on
Digital Economy which you refer to was a change in name
only, nothing changed functionally with respect to the
nature or scope of digital issues undertaken or civil
society's role therein). <br>
</blockquote>
<br>
I know that formulation of CEDP was a change in name only,
but proposals were invited " to improve its working
methods" ( <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.ift.org.mx/sites/default/files/conocenos/pleno/comisiones/mario-german-fromow-rangel/ocde.pdf">http://www.ift.org.mx/sites/default/files/conocenos/pleno/comisiones/mario-german-fromow-rangel/ocde.pdf</a>
 ) while changing its name in 2014. What I want to
know is whether any civil society group asked for change
in this Committees stakeholder consultation processes to
making it 'really multistakeholder', if the current
procedures are not considered so (which is the only excuse
to decry UN CIRP proposal). I know that nothing like this
happened. Why?<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:56AA405B.2080901@cippic.ca"
type="cite"> <br>
The key to the OECD is that it generates lots of policy
reports or, at most, soft law instruments </blockquote>
<br>
As said, it makes as much policy as UN bodies do.. Using
language in such a partisan manner is IMHO not quite
correct. It is simply the hegemonic construction which
powerful forces work to make and sustain. <br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:56AA405B.2080901@cippic.ca"
type="cite">-- nothing binding comes out of it. In this
context, it's useful for civil society to engage with
other stakeholders to attempt to resolve policy issues.
We definitely do not have the final say on these
policies, nor do we have a veto on par with state
parties.</blockquote>
<br>
Exactly the same model was suggested for UN CIRP...<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:56AA405B.2080901@cippic.ca"
type="cite"> But the OECD operates on a
multi-stakeholder principle, </blockquote>
<br>
If it does, that UN CIRP was also a multistakeholder
proposal, of being exactly the same stakeholder
participation design.<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:56AA405B.2080901@cippic.ca"
type="cite">meaning they will keep working until views
of all member states and of the four stakeholder groups
(which include, as relevant: the business community, the
technical community, a trade union community and on
telecommunications and digital issues, civil society).
To date there has been only one single occasion where a
policy document was adopted by the OECD over the
sustained objections of civil society. <br>
</blockquote>
<br>
That was the single most important document produced by
the committee "Principles for Internet policy making"...
On others issues too I know, they listen but the inter gov
committee finally decides. And I am sure that much has
been written in OECD policy docs that does not pass full
civil society muster.... You are over-blowing the
camaraderie. And if there is indeed some kind of a
'temporary and limited congruence' of libertarian civil
society and tech community with the Northern countries on
Internet issues, that has a different basis, and is
essentially temporary and limited. Such congruence often
takes place between civil society and developing country
views in most global social, economic and cultural polity
issues. Lets not get into that discussion. 9But if you
want to, I am happy to ).. <br>
<blockquote cite="mid:56AA405B.2080901@cippic.ca"
type="cite"> <br>
Even that policy documents, though, have no binding
effect on anyone. In practice, many, many OECD policies
remain largely unimplemented by OECD member states. They
tend to form more of a reference or normative statement
that is at most useful as one single input into domestic
policy-making processes (I note incidentally that I do a
lot of national policy development and that in my
experience most OECD policies tend to be more useful to
civil society than to other segments of society, for
whatever that's worth).<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Every single thing is true of UN bodies as well... Please
do read in detail the mandates and working of the UN
bodies that I referenced and others (like UNCTAD), which I
am sure you have been reading about. <br>
<blockquote cite="mid:56AA405B.2080901@cippic.ca"
type="cite"> <br>
My understanding of the proposed 2011 UN governance body
at the time (and please correct me if I'm wrong) was
wholly different.</blockquote>
<br>
I hope my above references corrects it..... <br>
<blockquote cite="mid:56AA405B.2080901@cippic.ca"
type="cite"> It was to be based on a command and control
model. </blockquote>
<br>
It was 80 percent OECD's Internet policy like body, and 20
percent had the problematic oversight role, which (1)
pursuant to Tunis Agenda references India needed to put
somewhere in its proposal, (2) India was always ready to
discuss it, and (3) in less than a year after the initial
proposal, in its proposal to WG on Enhanced Cooperation,
India split the proposal to separate the oversight
mechanism issue... However, the attitude to, and name
calling vis a vis, its proposal for a Un platform to
develop Internet related policies, and similar proposals
by groups like mine, did not move an inch... It was the
same diabolical multilateral,, inter gov, proposal, out to
control the Internet... <br>
<br>
This is simply a pro rich country and anti developing
country view, which does not behove the global civil
society. <br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:56AA405B.2080901@cippic.ca"
type="cite">It envisioned something similar to ICANN
(which, unlike the OECD, directly implements its
policies by its control of the root, etc), but with
governments at the helm as opposed to the stakeholder
model. </blockquote>
<br>
Oversight of ICANN has been completely distinct from ICANN
proper since the WSIS, the WGIG report and the Tunis
Agenda... It is outrageous to suggest that CIRP proposal
aimed to replace ICANN. And even if there is a hurry to
misunderstand and mis-characterise proposals from
developing country (given their under-capacity to defend
them), it is easy to see that the wording on 'oversight'
in the Indiam proposal came from the WGIG report, where
the distinctions between oversight and actual ICANN
operations was clearly made, over much diligent
discussions in an entirely multi-stakeholder fashion. <br>
<blockquote cite="mid:56AA405B.2080901@cippic.ca"
type="cite">Indeed, one element of the proposal would
have been to place ICANN (and perhaps some of the other
technical communities) under the control of the new UN
governance body. This is very different from the OECD
soft policy-development process.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Yes, you mean the 'oversight element', which issue has
been discussed in detail above, and to repeat, was removed
by subsequent Indian proposals.<br>
<br>
IÂ am happy to discuss this further, and provide an
further information or clarification that you might
require.<br>
<br>
And sorry for the long email..... I wanted to remove what
has become a deep rooted confusion, (to the extent I can
:) )... <br>
<br>
Best regards<br>
parminder <br>
<blockquote cite="mid:56AA405B.2080901@cippic.ca"
type="cite"> <br>
All the best (and happy 2016 !),<br>
Tamir<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/28/2016 8:59 AM,
parminder wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:56AA1ED6.7070207@itforchange.net"
type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Thursday 28 January
2016 06:48 PM, Lea Kaspar wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAJTVAjy9wD2rSAUDVbHL3UHxjv0kJmvNV3mJgm8Ta6eEiPaP_g@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Hi Parminder, the assumption of the
contradiction seem like a non sequitur. Why would
interest to engage in a process like the OECD have
to imply a normative endorsement of the status
quo? Working with the system that we've currently
got can go hand in hand with efforts to make the
system as a whole better. Not to mention the value
of damage control.</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Yes Lea, that can be... But does there exist any plan
of the engaged civil society to tell the forthcoming
OECD Ministerial that the model of Internet policy
making that they employ is really a inter-governmental
(pluri or multi lateral) one and not multistakeholder
one, and as such not really acceptable to civil
society, even though we may be working with you per
force. And also ask these governments how they
brazenly run such a inter-gov policy system when they
criticise any similar effort by UN as being
distastefully inter-gov and multi-lateral, and say
pious things like that Internet is just not the kind
of thing to be governed in an inter-gov manner. Are we
ready to make such a statement at the Ministrial,
while, ok, accepting your logic, not stopping to
engage with OECD's policy processes, in a 'damage
control' way, as you put it?<br>
<br>
All these civil society actors and groups were around
in 2011 when they shouted down India's Internet policy
mechanism proposal which was deliberately shaped
exactly on the OECD's model as being inter-gov and
multilateral, and thus unthinkably bad, representing
the worst things that any human mind could ever come
up with... <br>
<br>
In fact, it is just 2-3 years ago that OECD's
Committee on Digital Economy was formed, morphed from
the earlier committee on computers, communication and
information policy -- this happened much after the
civil society's raucous denouncement of India's UN
proposal.... Did, at that point when this committee
was being formed, civil society tell OECDÂ that
Internet cannot be governed in an inter gov manner,
and when they are forming this new committee thy
should make it genuinely multistakeholder.... No, no
one spoke a word.... I am ready to be told that I am
wrong. To repeat, not one word was said, much less a
statement made. it was not that civil society asked
for it, and they were refused, whereby I may accept
what you are saying... They never uttered a single
word.... Such is its pusillanimity in front of the
powerful, while the real job of civil society is to
challenge the most powerful. <br>
<br>
And now, in preparation for the forthcoming
Ministerial, when in the civil society advisory group
to OECD's committee, an odd voice recently spoke about
whether OECD's process is multistakeholder enough, the
general consensus was, leave that aside, lets focus on
substantive issues!!<br>
<br>
When we are in a discussion about the global policy
stage, suddenly no one can even think of any important
enough non ICANN-y Internet-related public policy
issues at all - we have spent years wondering whether
any or enough of such issues even exist. It is a
real joke!.. Just shift the scene, we are at the OECD,
and such policy issues roll out like no ones business
- work in the Internet age, sharing economy, economics
of data, algorithmic economy, policy implications of
internet of things, big data and social profiling
........... The list is unending. Civil society itself
actively keeps suggesting new policy areas and
engaging with them.<br>
<br>
People like Nick Ashton will actively argue at global
forums like this, that no, there is no need to have a
separate Internet or digital policies related body,
and all such areas can very well be dealt by policy
bodies looking at respective impacted domains (work,
education, governance, etc) ... But no one tells
OECD's Digital Economy Policy Committee that it is
superfluous when OECD has about 50 other committees
dealing with every possible area, where, by that
logic , specific issues of Internet impact could have
been adequately dealt with. <br>
<br>
Lea, you really see nothing contradictory or amiss
here!?<br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAJTVAjy9wD2rSAUDVbHL3UHxjv0kJmvNV3mJgm8Ta6eEiPaP_g@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Warm wishes,</div>
<div>Lea</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jan 28, 2016
at 1:13 PM, parminder <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a></a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> <br>
<br>
<div>On Thursday 28 January 2016 06:32
PM, Carlos Afonso wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>Grande Parm,
"Global IG civil society" as a monolithic bloc? Could you elaborate?</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
Dear Carlos,<br>
<br>
Nice to hear from you!<br>
<br>
I should not have generalised. My
apologies. But the civil society section
that engages with OECD's Internet policy
processes is really a pretty big part of
the civil society groups dominant in the
global IG space. So, my question may be
taken just as being addressed to this
quite big civil society section, vis a
vis their apparently contradictory stand
when they are at the OECD (the club of
the rich countries) vis a vis when they
are at the UN (a grouping of all
countries) .<br>
<br>
best regards, parminder <br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>fraternal regards
--c.a.
On 1/28/16 10:00, parminder wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>Thanks Carolina for compiling this information.
As global IG civil society preparesin full enthusiasm to participate in
the OECD ministerial on digital economy policy, I would ask what has
become my pet question...
Why would you not support the same model of Internet policy making if
all governments instead of just the 34 richest ones are involved, if the
stakeholder participation processes remain exactly the same as with this
OECD process? (And that would include your native country, Brazil.)
I cant make it simpler.
Can all this enthusiasm notbe considered a pro rich countries approach?
Not something that behoves global civil society, which is supposed to be
on the side of the weaker and marginalised, groups and people.
parminder
On Thursday 28 January 2016 07:18 AM, Carolina Rossini wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>Hi all.
Today, we - at PK- have published a couple of short texts about what
is going on in preparation for the OECD Ministerial Meeting. The
Ministerial will take place in Cancun in June 2016.
We've also included information on how to participate. The most
important step is to become a member of CSISAC, the civil society
coalition that channels the participation and concerns of CS in the
OECD.
Best, Carol
· OECD Sets the Scene for Future Decades of ICT Policy Development
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.publicknowledge.org/news-blog/blogs/oecd-sets-the-scene-for-future-decades-of-ict-policy-development" target="_blank">https://www.publicknowledge.org/news-blog/blogs/oecd-sets-the-scene-for-future-decades-of-ict-policy-development</a>
· Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.publicknowledge.org/organization-for-economic-co-operation-and-development" target="_blank">https://www.publicknowledge.org/organization-for-economic-co-operation-and-development</a>
· OECD Ministerial Meetings
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.publicknowledge.org/oecd-ministerial-meetings" target="_blank">https://www.publicknowledge.org/oecd-ministerial-meetings</a>
</pre>
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