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<font face="Verdana">see a correction below</font><br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Sunday 21 February 2016 02:55 PM,
parminder wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:56C98285.5040708@itforchange.net" type="cite">
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<font face="Verdana">Thanks Tamir<br>
<br>
You are chipping at my central argument from many different
directions, in a manner which IMHO is tangential to the main
issue I propose for consideration. However, I will still respond
to all of them. But so that the main issue does not get lost in
all the endless discussion of the main traits and fine
distinctions between many different bodies, which btw would
always be there, I present my main proposal again below.<br>
<br>
Leave aside whether OECD's CDEP (Committee on Digital Economy
Policy) facilitates treaties or not, and other such finer
points; my proposition is simple. Are you, and others here,
ready to have a Internet policy body in the UN which *exactly*
of the same mandate (I am sure that you wont have problem in
adding a more bit of social mandate to the economic one, that is
harmless, right) as the OECD's CDEP and have the *exact* same
method of stakeholder engagement/ participation? <br>
<br>
And as said we have facing us the UN WG on enhanced cooperation
which should begun functioning soon where civil society would
need to put its proposals and respond to others (BTW, do note
that this UN WG has much better form of other stakeholder
participation that any OECD or CoE body, and it is UN... I am
ready to hear anyone who disagrees with this claim.) <br>
<br>
Therefore, I hope CS groups here will have a response to this
question.<br>
<br>
And indeed, if the response is no, I would like to know, why
so..If the justification is that they are not ready for a
multilateral (ML) Internet policy related body in the UN (as Lea
says), the next question is, are these groups ready to make a
statement to the forthcoming OECD ministerial that OECD's CDEP
is a ML body and not a MS one, and this is no way to make
Internet policies, more so when OED countries use the MSism ruse
to block any progress towards development of Internet related
policies, and/or the connected work of discussions, analysis,
and so on. <br>
</font></blockquote>
<br>
meaning, blocking it in the UN (while they do it themselves) <br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:56C98285.5040708@itforchange.net" type="cite"><font
face="Verdana"> <br>
........................... ............................. <br>
<br>
I have put a line above to separate the above clear questions
from the discussion below, so that their specificity and clarity
is not lost. <br>
<br>
Now, I'd try to respond to your various points.<br>
<br>
1. You say OECD's CDEP does not have the mandate to facilitate
treaties. (Apart from, as above, I am ready to have a UN
committee with exactly the same mandate, treaty facilitation or
not) do remember that treaties are specific instruments bearing
the authority of their signatories. They may employ any
convenient body for help, and later to be the custodian of them.
None of OECD committees have an express mandate of treaty
facilitation , but OECD has done treaties, whereby it is obvious
that the corresponding committee in any case facilitated it.
Correspondingly, there is no doubt that if and when OECD wants
to have a treaty on an Internet related issue, it will be
facilitated by CDEP </font><font face="Verdana">( I read CDEP's
objectives 2 and 3-i as quite enough to take such a role)</font><font
face="Verdana">... Now, see for instance<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://portal.unesco.org/en/ev.php-URL_ID=15244&URL_DO=DO_TOPIC&URL_SECTION=201.html">
the mandate of the UNESCO</a>, there is no mention of
treaties, but then UNESCO has facilitated numerous treaties. So,
I consider your this point as rather weak. <br>
<br>
2. Next, you take the defence that CDEP has been around for a
long time, and so its case is different. As you know, it was
established 2-3 years ago changing the name and (considerable)
part of the mandate of an earlier committee. Apart from other
considerable changes of mandate, do you note, and I made this
point earlier, that it is the first time that it declares that
it makes Internet policy in a multistakeholder (MS)</font><font
face="Verdana"> fashion</font><font face="Verdana">. Was this
change of mandate discussed with its CS advisory committee? if
not, in any case it is a very bad case of MS non participation.
And if inputs were indeed taken, then apparently the CS advisory
group must have agreed that CDEP is a MS body... That happened
just 2-3 years ago. Not too long ago! Is the CS advisory group
not answerable then why they agreed to let CDEP call itself MS
but around the same time and afterwards the same CS groups would
not accept a similar arrangement at the UN as MS... Is this not
hypocrisy... What kind of arguments can hide that fact. And
therefore, CDEP has always been there itself is weak argument
in this particular argument. <br>
<br>
3. You say CoE clearly makes treaties, but then for it you put
forward other defences. Apart from the fact that OECD also makes
treaties even if less often that CoE, this is a slippery
argument to change the defences for CoE to another set of
unsubstantiated and weak one... OF course UN also has its human
rights instruments and human rights courts. Just last week it is
a UN body which gave its judgement on Assange's inappropriate
confinement and not a CoE body.... But then there will always be
some difference between one thing and another, one situation and
the next. But the arguments in this case too IMHO do not add
up..<br>
<br>
4. You (and others) give all kinds of arguments in defence of
OECD and CoE, but it is very disappointing that you miss (side
step?) the simple, straight -forward, and powerful issue of
democracy, and equal representation of all people, regions and
countries. Is it a small point which we can just brush aside? In
no other area of global governance, global civil society does
such a thing. Quite the opposite, they are mostly solidly with
developing regions and countries, where the most excluded and
marginalised reside. Is it not civil society's job to
preponderantly represent these people? And if someone has to be
given the benefit of doubt, it has to be these people, and the
regions and groups from which they come, but the club of rich
countries.<br>
<br>
5. You have begun to bring in the argument of human rights
record of different countries and regions ( I expect this
argument to become more prominent as other defensive arguments
fall by the wayside). Yes, it is important, but we also know the
human rights violations by the rich countries, even in civil and
political rights areas, just think Snowden and Assange, but then
there is this big area of social, economic and cultural rights,
which it seems we just want to fully forget. It is the
neoliberal order being put together by the rich countries that
is responsible for untold miseries and deprivations the world
over, and the Internet and IG are strongly implicated in this
process. What about these violations of rights, and who is doing
them most? Forums where all countries are present have certainly
a much better record than rich country clubs if we look at the
whole set of human rights together. I am happy to discuss this
point further is you like.<br>
<br>
6. Lastly, you contend, "...</font><font face="Verdana">the
civil society presence at the OECD is global. You, yourself, are
a member of the stakeholder group, let's not forget.". I am
there just to observe, and do not undertake any participation at
all. (If I did, id be arguing these things over there which I
havent.) Because I dont find this manner of global inclusion
legitimate, when all countries are not represented, and only the
richest ones are. It is anathema to me. I did accept the
invitation to the Seoul OECD ministerial and was there when the
CS advisory body was formed. I insisted on the inclusion of this
sentence in the CS Seoul declaration, which is supposed to be
the founding doc of the OECD's CS committee. "</font>Global
Internet policy-making should involve equal participation of all
people, countries, and stakeholders." However, I can see that
apparently the group has completely forgotten about this part of
their founding document, and plans to do nothing about it. I do
keep reminding them often, as I am doing currently, but with no
response. <br>
<br>
regards<br>
parminder<br>
<br>
PS: Since IRP group is also cc ed, let me remind everyone that
this group is right now inputting into CoE's IG strategic doc, so
maybe they may want to tell them what is the right way in their
estimation of MS and not ML Internet policy making as the CoE
(like everyone else) does today... <br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Sunday 21 February 2016 03:48 AM,
Tamir Israel wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:56C8E649.9020307@cippic.ca" type="cite">
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Hi Parminder,<br>
<br>
Thanks again for the detailed reply and again I apologize for
the delayed response. I'll respond to some of what you say in
line, but I have not been following WSIS10+, so will leave those
elements for others to address..<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/8/2016 10:02 AM, parminder
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:56B8ADEE.5010102@itforchange.net"
type="cite">
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The first point in my response was about the nature of UN
based proposals for Internet related policy making, which I
insist remain on the table. we especially cannot dodge them in
view of the new UN WG on enhanced cooperation which will begin
working later this year. In that regard my question is: <br>
<br>
What is the response of civil society groups here to the
proposal to institute an Internet policy development model in
the UN which is exactly, repeat, exactly, the same as the CDEP
process in the OECD (whereby the only difference will be that
instead of the 34 richest countries making policy, there will
the full list of 190 or so, or a rotating smaller
representative group of them, plus a clear institutionalised
linkage to the IGF)?<br>
<br>
The second, complimentary question is, as follows:<br>
<br>
The only logical and defensible reason for not accepting the
above proposal that I can think of is that such a proposal
about does not represent a mutistakeholder model of Internet
policy making, and the major civil society groups and persons
here will only accept a multistakeholder model of policy
making (whatever it is). <br>
<br>
Fair enough. In that case, is there a proposal to make this
case to the forthcoming OECD ministerial organised around the
work of its Committee on Digital Economy Policy (which is
OECD's Internet policy making organ)? I mean to at least
clearly say, in a specific statement, to the ministerial
that we do not accept their model of Internet policy making,
since it is not multistakeholder (and also offer a
multistakeholder option, which if you refuse their model, of
course they'd ask for). This is the first ministerial after
the CDEP was formed with a re-adopted mandate, which for the
first time claims that it develops policy through a
'multistakeholder process'. Since, the civil society groups
failed to raise this issue when the CDEP was formed 2 years
back and they were asked for their inputs, would they want to
now correct their mistake, and take this issue up in the
forthcoming public meeting of the OECD ministrial? <br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote cite="mid:56B8ADEE.5010102@itforchange.net"
type="cite"> If not, why so? Where do their
multistakeholderist energies, which are to be seen to be
believed when the arena is the UN, disappear in front of the
comity of the richest countries of the world ? Whom they join
in the first place in the UN arena to sing multistakeholderist
paeans. Why not expose this extreme hypocrisy of theirs, which
is so easily done, they would not have words to come back
with, which, excuse my slipping into cynicism, I btw i suspect
is why most groups dont do it. we cant do such things to our
friends, right!<br>
</blockquote>
CDEP has been around for a very very long time, it was merely
renamed from ICCP a few years back, without any real change in
orientation or scope of operation. There have been several
ministerials over the years, and in some of these, governance
issues were front and center. For example, in the Seoul
Ministerial (which has not even reached its 10 year milestone
yet, to put things in perspective) governance was the main topic
of discussion and where civil society's standing and role at
CDEP (then ICCP) was formalized, providing an official and
independent channel for civil society input into OECD
internet-related policy-making. This was a big step, and one
that was taken not too long ago. Governance is not a central
issue in each and every ministerial, nor should it be. <br>
<br>
In addition, in my own experience, governance issues have come
up at CDEP many times, but mostly on a case by case basis where
the process has broken down one way or another. This has led to
some improvements, eg as I noted in my previous email, sometimes
the civil society stakeholder group can formulate its differing
views regarding an OECD policy paper, and these will be
incorporated into the formal release of the document. Given the
types of things that come out of CDEP, this is a useful and
effective remedy. Those types of tweaks have been effective, and
the OECD has (again in my experience) been generally responsive,
which has likely further forestalled calls for broad-ranged
changes. <br>
<br>
I should note briefly that in terms of civil society /
stakeholder engagement, at least, the civil society presence at
the OECD is global. You, yourself, are a member of the
stakeholder group, let's not forget. Finally, while I'm not sure
there is an immediate need for tectonic shifts in the CDEP's
stakeholder model as it's evolved in the past few years since
the seoul ministerial, I would still not recommend the model for
any body that has a treaty-coordination role. <br>
<blockquote cite="mid:56B8ADEE.5010102@itforchange.net"
type="cite"> <br>
In the CS advisory group to the OECD's CDEP, one person did
propose that it should seek greater multistakeholderism in
CDEP's policy making processes, but this proposal was made
light of by others, seeking focus on substantive issues
instead!! Why such shyness with the OECD, when the same groups
are never short on reprimanding UN bodies - extant or
proposed, on this matter? <br>
</blockquote>
I'm not very involved in this ministerial, but I have seen one
proposal to have a panel on governance. It came late in the day,
so I don't know if it'll make the cut, but the point is this one
panel would not be enough to dramatically fix any deficiencies
in the OECD process. I would think the proposal for dramatic
reform you mention would have to be carefully formulated ahead
of time, and this groundwork has not been done. Perhaps it's
because the OECD has tended to be fairly responsive to multi
stakeholder concerns when these come up, as noted above. These
case by case improvements to the stakeholder model have proven
an efficient and effective way of advancing matters, so the
impetus for dramatic change so soon on the heels of the seoul
ministerial has been low. <br>
<blockquote cite="mid:56B8ADEE.5010102@itforchange.net"
type="cite"> <br>
The job of civil society is to speak up to the most powerful,
not be in convenient alliances with them. <br>
<br>
Also, CoE's Internet policy mechanism is "right now" seeking
civil society input into their IG strategy.... It makes policy
frameworks in a similar manner as OCED (but apparently with
less formal stakeholder systems). Why not tell them, this is
what we think is multistakholder policy making, and we would
expect CoE to adopt it. That is our input, or at least one of
the inputs, to their IG strategy (It is CoE's treaty on cyber
crime that is often pushed post facto as the 'gold standards'
for developing countries to accede to. A cursory search throws
up another one on 'automatic processing of individual data'.
But somehow policy, even hard law based, processes of the
'good countries' done in fully multi-lateral ways seem to
completely fall off civil society's radar.)Â )<br>
</blockquote>
CoE is not the same as OECD's CDEP. For one thing, in spite of
your repeated claims, CDEP does not have any sort of treaty
coordination role (a role, I note, that you would retain for
your UN coordination body). Very few CDEP outputs (a handful
over the course of decades) are even in a format that would be
conducive to coordinating a treaty, most are policy-like
reports, raw data analysis or maybe at most general policy
statements. I cannot think of one CDEP output that has in fact
become a treaty. The closest might be the Privacy Guidelines,
which have a format that might be conducive to a treaty-like
instrument. These are an exception to the rule, though, and
moreover they have not been implemented by some OECD countries
(let alone formed the basis for an international treaty). In
this regard, it largely replicates what ITU-D already does which
is create non-binding policy reports and data analysis.<br>
<br>
CoE by contrast is, as you say, a treaty coordinating body.
However, while contributing to the international dialogue on
Internet issues (like any other regional or national body), CoE
is somewhat contiguous with the EU system and, moreover, has
much stronger democratic mechanisms and safeguards than are
available at the UN, including a non-partisan parliamentary
system, judicial system and binding over-arching human rights
instrument. Again, there are no comparators at the UN level that
could mitigate the harms that might result from a purely
state-led Internet treaty-coordination body, so this, too, would
not work as a model. (not to belittle the UN, just to say that
you would want a stronger, truly stakeholder makeup to
counteract this lack). That being said, I'm not very active at
CoE, so I would not want to speak to the efficacy of that model
and whether it does or does not need to improve in terms of its
multi-stakeholder formats.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Tamir<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:56B8ADEE.5010102@itforchange.net"
type="cite"> <br>
It is time for those who occupy the space of the global civil
society working in the IG area to engage with these
uncomfortable questions. They would not be able to retain
global legitimacy if they do not...<br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Sunday 07 February 2016 03:27
PM, parminder wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:56B71505.6040409@itforchange.net"
type="cite">
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<font face="Verdana">Dear Tamir<br>
<br>
Thanks for your response, which is the most well argued
and comprehensive one that I have ever received for this
question that I have asked several times in the last many
years. So thanks again.<br>
<br>
There is another important aspect of your email that I
would like to respond to but let me first do so for<br>
<br>
</font>
<blockquote><font face="Verdana">"</font><font
face="Verdana">Now, it may be that the IT 4 Change
vision for CIRP was nothing like this, or that these
elements could have been stripped from the CIRP proposal
-- and your account suggests this was proposed at a
later stage (perhaps too late?) -- but as presented
these command and control elements seemed as integral if
not primary functions. Most, if not all of the
commentary regarding the CIRP proposal related to this
particular aspect of the proposal, which is the fact
that it would bring about multi-lateral control as
opposed to simply creating yet one more policy-making
venue."</font><br>
</blockquote>
<font face="Verdana"> I will come to IT for Change part the
last bec it is the least important thing here. <br>
<br>
The "command and control" aspect of CIRP that you point to
chiefly is about the ICANN oversight part (the treaty
facilitating aspect being common to OECD and CoE
committees and thus is symmetric ). Please note that the
CIRP proposal clearly says that it has picked CIRP's
mandate items from the institutional models suggested by
the Working Group on IG's report. This report clearly says
that the oversight role is the role currently undertaken
by US Dept of Commerce. Obviously, therefore the CIRP
proposed only to take up that role which is currently
played by the US Dept of commerce.<br>
<br>
The question then that I have for you; how is ICANN
working under the oversight of US government not a
'command and control' structure, and I hear it always
referred to as a multistakeholder structure, but if the
same role was played together by all countries it became a
'command and control' structure? (The current IANA
transition process not being relevant here bec it was not
envisaged at the time that CIRP was proposed and then
roundly criticised). <br>
<br>
Second part: "</font><font face="Verdana"><font
face="Verdana">these elements could have been stripped
from the CIRP proposal -- and your account suggests this
was proposed at a later stage (perhaps too late?)" (from
your email below.<br>
<br>
I have said this before, the proposal itself said, we
are open to discussing, the Indian gov rep at Nairobi
IGF, immediately after the proposal as made, said, we
are open to discuss and change it, and at the next CSTD
meeting, India again said we are open to change it and
invited ideas. No response, other than, the whole thing
should simply be abandoned. Most importantly, India
actually separated the oversight part from that for
'other public policy making' in its submission to the UN
Working Group on Enhanced Cooperation whose precise
mandate was to come up with an appropriate global
Internet governance related institutional architecture,
esp for 'public policy making' plus ICANN oversight.
Civil society members were in there in that WG, and
those outside made written submissions, over two rounds,
but any proposal to have an OECD kind of Internet
related public policy mechanism remained fully ignored,
and considered as multilateralist and therefore evil...
<br>
<br>
So, I cannot see how you and others decide that it "was
too late"... The right to make the rules of game, and
what is the right time, what is the right way to propose
a thing, and so on, is one of the biggest forms of
hegemonic power.... I dont accept it. The proposal still
stands today, you, and others, need to comment on it
as it is being proposed to you, as I am proposing to
you, and not take the cover of, that was the wrong time,
and the wrong way, and so on...<br>
</font><br>
As I said, the WG on enhanced cooperation is being
reconstituted, you and others here are global players in
the IG space by choice and profession; my question to you
all is, what is your response to my proposal (forget
others) to develop a Internet related public policy
development mechanism inside the UN "on the exact model"
as it happens in the OECD. I will await yours and other
people's response. And if I do not get it, keep asking
this question. This is about the denial of the right of
self determination and right of democratic participation
of the huge majority of the world's population (non OECD
countries). A right, which in view is, even prior to all
other rights, a right which determines what rights are...
<br>
<br>
Lastly, your comment on ITfC's positions: yes, we have
always asked for an OECD like Internet related policy
mechanism in the UN, in the exact model of how it works in
the OECD, where it gets called as a multistakeholder
model. For ICANN oversight we has for a different kind of
model. Not only ITfC but JNC (Just Net Coalition) has made
similar demands (see our submissions to the the NetMundial
Conference)... But both IT for Change and JNC get branded
as pro - multilateralism and much of the dominant civil
society here by contrast as pro multi-stakeholderism,
while, as should be obvious from this discussion, the
*real and only difference* is that we refuse to work with
US- and OCED-centric 'global' policy and IG models and ask
instead to have all countries equally involved, while
preserving the same amount of multistakeholder
participation as it exists in extant models today. (I say
this with full authority, and am ready to stand by it.)
But the fact that the mentioned labels have been so
successfully affixed and sustained speaks of the power of
hegemonic discourse, even within the so called civil
society... I think we need to be doing better than that.
We need to be able to discuss things opening, and provide
answers to the questions that get asked about our
positions. If even civil society does not do it, who
would.<br>
<br>
parminder<br>
</font><br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Sunday 07 February 2016
05:40 AM, Tamir Israel wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:56B68B8A.3050205@cippic.ca"
type="cite">
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Dear Parminder,<br>
<br>
I also apologize for the delayed response, and appreciate
your detailed answer.<br>
<br>
I definitely think there is room for improvement in the
OECD policy-making process and particularly on how it
manages multi-stakeholder input -- I would not want to
leave a contrary impression. There have certainly been
opportunities along the way to improve this process (some
missed, some not - it's most often raised on a case by
case basis, which has led to some improvements over time,
at least in my opinion).<br>
<br>
I agree that many/most UN bodies do not generate binding
documents or activities (the ITU being a key exception),
but to my recollection the opposition to CIRP revolved
around those elements of the proposal that <i>did</i>
envision this type of binding action, which is far
different from what the OECD does. <br>
<br>
Specifically at issue from the CIRP proposal as it was
presented in the UN:<br>
<ul>
<li>Coordinate and oversee the bodies responsible for
technical and operational functioning of the Internet,
including global standards setting;</li>
<li>Facilitate negotiation of treaties, conventions and
agreements on Internet-related public policies;</li>
<li>Undertake arbitration and dispute resolution, where
necessary;</li>
</ul>
All of these envision binding action. It may be true that
some branches of the OECD do, indeed, lead to binding
treaty-making but this is neither part of the CDEP's
mandate nor has it ever been something the committee has
done historically in the context of Internet policy. By
contrast, facilitating treaties was a key listed objective
for the CIRP. Likewise, arbitration and dispute resolution
is not only an operationally binding activity, but is
typically only employed where there are hard underlying
legal obligations (ie treaties) between states that can
lead to disputes requiring adjudication.<br>
<br>
Finally, the proposal envisioned CIRP oversight of not
just ICANN, but all of the "bodies responsible for
technical and operational functioning of the Internet".
This would include, for example, the IETF and other
technical standards bodies alongside ICANN. <br>
<br>
The OECD multi-stakeholder model is not ideal, it is
probably closer to multi-lateral than most folks would
like, except that the civil society stakeholder group can
decide not to endorse any reports or policy instruments it
generates. As these instruments are not really binding
anyways, that form of dissent can be relatively meaningful
because it undermines the legitimacy of the policy
instrument and legitimacy is really the only currency it
has. As a venue I, at least, have found it worthwhile
engaging in, even though as with all policy processes it's
had its ups and downs. Still, it's not ideal and wholly
unsuited to generating binding policy as opposed to just
generating policy. It is nowhere near robust enough for
generating treaties or overseeing all the technical
communities and ICANN.<br>
<br>
Now, it may be that the IT 4 Change vision for CIRP was
nothing like this, or that these elements could have been
stripped from the CIRP proposal -- and your account
suggests this was proposed at a later stage (perhaps too
late?) -- but as presented these command and control
elements seemed as integral if not primary functions.
Most, if not all of the commentary regarding the CIRP
proposal related to this particular aspect of the
proposal, which is the fact that it would bring about
multi-lateral control as opposed to simply creating yet
one more policy-making venue.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Tamir<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/31/2016 10:13 AM,
parminder wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:56AE249C.4090202@itforchange.net"
type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8"
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<font face="Verdana">Dear Tamir<br>
<br>
A happy 2016 to you as well, and thanks for your
engagement with this important issue. <br>
Sorry for delay in coming back. Was preoccupied... <br>
</font><br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Thursday 28 January 2016
09:52 PM, Tamir Israel wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:56AA405B.2080901@cippic.ca"
type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
Dear Parminder,<br>
<br>
If I recall, objections to the 2011 multi-lateral,
inter-state Internet governance body actually arose
from the fact that the proposal did <i>not</i> follow
the OECD model. <br>
</blockquote>
<br>
I did some background work towards developing the 2011
CIRP proposal , and it was quite independent, and in the
open. IT for Change gave a <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.itforchange.net/sites/default/files/EC_statement-IT_for_Change2010.pdf">submission</a>
to 2010 UNDESA consultation on enhanced cooperation, and
then did a <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.itforchange.net/ibsa_RiodeJaneiro_Sep2011">background
paper</a> for IBSA meeting in Rio de Janeiro (both are
public documents), which sought a UN Body on Internet
policies taking from the OECD model. This OECD model was
specifically discussed in both these papers. The <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://itforchange.net/sites/default/files/ITfC/india_un_cirp_proposal_20111026.pdf">mandate
of CIRP</a> was very similar to that of OECD
Committees, including the Committee on Digital Policies
(except on one, significant point to be discussed
later). The stakeholder consultation process of CIRP was
exactly taken from the OECD model, plus a very important
additional element that "IGF will provide inputs to the
CIRP" (OECD having no such system and thus being
deficient to that extent in its multistakeholder
content)<br>
<br>
See the mandate of OECD Committee on Digital Economy
Policy <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www2.oecd.org/OECDGROUPS/Bodies/ShowBodyView.aspx?BodyID=1837&BodyPID=8997&Lang=en&Book=">here</a>,
and that of its predecessor CICCP <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://webnet.oecd.org/OECDGROUPS/Bodies/ShowBodyView.aspx?BodyID=1837&BodyPID=7425&Lang=en&Book=">here</a>
. These committees were always supposed to make policy,
develop policy frameworks, and coordinate policies of
their members. Policy development is the central
objective of OECD, and this is written upfront on its <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.oecd.org/internet/ieconomy/">Internet
economy page</a> 'The OECD focuses on the development
of better policies..."<br>
<br>
When OECD inter gov agreements and treaties are
developed, like they exist in areas of tax avoidance,
anti-bribery, and so on, the respective committees
facilitate such agreement/ treaty development process.<br>
<br>
UN CIRP, as per India's proposal in 2011, was supposed
to basically be doing all this work. And, as can seen
from a reading of the proposal, with the same
multistakeholder model, only reinforcement through
formation of an organic linkage with the IGF and
inviting its inputs. So, I will like to ask you, how has
India's CIRP proposal become a multilateral,
inter-state, IG body, while OECD's CDEP is a
multistakeholder, harmless body? That was my original
question.<br>
<br>
Now, if you want to focus all your argument against UN
CIRPs on just one of its mandate, which was of oversight
over ICANN, lets discuss it. <br>
<br>
Firstly, when IT for Change proposed a OECD like model
we suggested just policy development like OECD does and
not ICANN oversight for this body.... But I can see that
when India was making a proposal to the UN, it had to
keep in mind one of the most contested global IG issue,
of the US's unilateral oversight over ICANN, and the
express mandate of the WSIS that<big> "<font size="2"><big><font
size="2"><big><span style="font-weight: 400">all
governments should have an equal role and
responsibility for international Internet
governance and for ensuring the stability,
security and continuity of the Internet"
(para 68), which directly speaks to equal
oversight role over ICANN, if there has to
be one. Now, India did not have time to make
an elaborate separate proposal for oversight
transition, and put that role under the
proposed new Committee for Internet Related
Policies. In doing so, it picked up the
language from 2 Models of IG architecture
put forward by the (multistakeholder) <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.wgig.org/docs/WGIGREPORT.pdf">Working
Group on IG</a> . <br>
<br>
Further, do note that the India proposal as
read out in the UN clearly called<br>
<br>
"for the establishment of an openÂended working group under
the Commission on Science and Technology for Development for drawing up the detailed terms of reference for
CIRP, with a view to actualizing it within the next 18 months. We are open to the views and suggestions of
all
Member States, and stand ready to work with other delegations to carry forward this proposal, and thus seek tofill the serious gap in the implementation of the Tunis Agenda, by providing substance and content to the concept<br>
of Enhanced CoÂoperation enshrined in the Tunis Agenda"<br>
<br>
So, everyone was open for suggestions. One
should have just said, remove the oversight
role from this committee and the rest is
ok... Within a few months, at the next CSTD
meeting, India again said, tell us what
issues you have with our proposal and lets
discuss them. No response. Then in another
few months, on its own, in its submission to
the CSTD WG on Enhanced Cooperation, India
separated the issue and proposed mechanism
for general Internet related public policy
development (as OECD does) and the oversight
role, on which they asked for a separate
discussion and possible mechanism. <br>
<br>
But their proposal remained as much of a
taboo as before, to Northern government and
big business, but also to the tech community
and most of the civil society... And this is
the hypocrisy that I point to.</span></big></font></big></font></big>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:56AA405B.2080901@cippic.ca"
type="cite"> <br>
The OECD model is to produce non-binding soft law in a
multi-stakeholder context.</blockquote>
<br>
This is simple misuse of language, driven by partisan
hegemonic constructs, that people nilly willy fall prey
to.... I have linked to OECD documents above... See the
mandates and activities of UN bodies, like <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://en.unesco.org/about-us/introducing-unesco">UNESCO</a>,
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.who.int/about/en/">WHO</a>, <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.undp.org/content/undp/en/home/operations/about_us.html">UNDP</a>,
and if you are going for a committee (which is *not* the
dominant mode of UN working, it mostly functions through
separate bodies as listed) then maybe you can <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.unoosa.org/oosa/en/ourwork/copuos/index.html">see
this one</a> .... Most of these do more or less
exactly the same stuff as OECD committees do... How
often have you seen hard law coming out of the UN . And
then OECD also produces binding agreements... What and
how is what OECD does 'soft' and what UN does 'hard'...
There is no IMHO basis for your statement and claim. <br>
<br>
As for for your phrase 'in a multistakeholder context'
(referring to OECD), that is key to my question. How do
call the proposed UN CIRP be not multistakeholder and
the working of OECD committees multistakeholder??? I am
sure you would have read the CIRP proposal, but if you
havent it is again <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://itforchange.net/sites/default/files/ITfC/india_un_cirp_proposal_20111026.pdf">here</a>,
and has exactly the same stakeholder consultation
mechanism as OECD's CDEP. <br>
<br>
It is just not you who in your in your opening line of
this email denounced the proposed CIRP as multilateral
inter-state body, and are calling the OECD model as
multilateral, when, I repeat it for the hundredth time,
both have, by design, the same stakeholder participaiton
model. Almost everyone does.... An ISOC/ tech community
rep recently called the OECD process as
"multistakeholderism at work" ( <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.internetac.org/archives/category/contributions"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.internetac.org/archives/category/contributions">http://www.internetac.org/archives/category/contributions</a></a>
). Such adulatory references, calling the OECD process,
multistakeholder, are commonplace.... But the same
people call a proposal form developing countries with
the same stakeholder participation model as
multilateral, inter gov, and so on...I think this is
extremely unfair. And a great example of hegemonic
discourse at work, extremely efficiently. <br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:56AA405B.2080901@cippic.ca"
type="cite"> On digital issues, civil society has
direct input into that policy-making process, and this
has been the case since the Seoul Ministerial in 2009
</blockquote>
<br>
I am on OECD's CS advisory group's elist and fully know
how such inputting takes place, and how much of it gets
accepcted... But in any case, as mentioned, exactly the
same process was proposed for the UN CIRP, including UN
funded meetings of advisory groups preceding the inter
gov council meetings, as happens with OECD. <br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:56AA405B.2080901@cippic.ca"
type="cite">(the recent formulation of the Committee
on Digital Economy which you refer to was a change in
name only, nothing changed functionally with respect
to the nature or scope of digital issues undertaken or
civil society's role therein). <br>
</blockquote>
<br>
I know that formulation of CEDP was a change in name
only, but proposals were invited " to improve its
working methods" ( <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.ift.org.mx/sites/default/files/conocenos/pleno/comisiones/mario-german-fromow-rangel/ocde.pdf">http://www.ift.org.mx/sites/default/files/conocenos/pleno/comisiones/mario-german-fromow-rangel/ocde.pdf</a>
 ) while changing its name in 2014. What I want to
know is whether any civil society group asked for change
in this Committees stakeholder consultation processes to
making it 'really multistakeholder', if the current
procedures are not considered so (which is the only
excuse to decry UN CIRP proposal). I know that nothing
like this happened. Why?<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:56AA405B.2080901@cippic.ca"
type="cite"> <br>
The key to the OECD is that it generates lots of
policy reports or, at most, soft law instruments </blockquote>
<br>
As said, it makes as much policy as UN bodies do.. Using
language in such a partisan manner is IMHO not quite
correct. It is simply the hegemonic construction which
powerful forces work to make and sustain. <br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:56AA405B.2080901@cippic.ca"
type="cite">-- nothing binding comes out of it. In
this context, it's useful for civil society to engage
with other stakeholders to attempt to resolve policy
issues. We definitely do not have the final say on
these policies, nor do we have a veto on par with
state parties.</blockquote>
<br>
Exactly the same model was suggested for UN CIRP...<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:56AA405B.2080901@cippic.ca"
type="cite"> But the OECD operates on a
multi-stakeholder principle, </blockquote>
<br>
If it does, that UN CIRP was also a multistakeholder
proposal, of being exactly the same stakeholder
participation design.<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:56AA405B.2080901@cippic.ca"
type="cite">meaning they will keep working until views
of all member states and of the four stakeholder
groups (which include, as relevant: the business
community, the technical community, a trade union
community and on telecommunications and digital
issues, civil society). To date there has been only
one single occasion where a policy document was
adopted by the OECD over the sustained objections of
civil society. <br>
</blockquote>
<br>
That was the single most important document produced by
the committee "Principles for Internet policy making"...
On others issues too I know, they listen but the inter
gov committee finally decides. And I am sure that much
has been written in OECD policy docs that does not pass
full civil society muster.... You are over-blowing the
camaraderie. And if there is indeed some kind of a
'temporary and limited congruence' of libertarian civil
society and tech community with the Northern countries
on Internet issues, that has a different basis, and is
essentially temporary and limited. Such congruence often
takes place between civil society and developing country
views in most global social, economic and cultural
polity issues. Lets not get into that discussion. 9But
if you want to, I am happy to ).. <br>
<blockquote cite="mid:56AA405B.2080901@cippic.ca"
type="cite"> <br>
Even that policy documents, though, have no binding
effect on anyone. In practice, many, many OECD
policies remain largely unimplemented by OECD member
states. They tend to form more of a reference or
normative statement that is at most useful as one
single input into domestic policy-making processes (I
note incidentally that I do a lot of national policy
development and that in my experience most OECD
policies tend to be more useful to civil society than
to other segments of society, for whatever that's
worth).<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Every single thing is true of UN bodies as well...
Please do read in detail the mandates and working of the
UN bodies that I referenced and others (like UNCTAD),
which I am sure you have been reading about. <br>
<blockquote cite="mid:56AA405B.2080901@cippic.ca"
type="cite"> <br>
My understanding of the proposed 2011 UN governance
body at the time (and please correct me if I'm wrong)
was wholly different.</blockquote>
<br>
I hope my above references corrects it..... <br>
<blockquote cite="mid:56AA405B.2080901@cippic.ca"
type="cite"> It was to be based on a command and
control model. </blockquote>
<br>
It was 80 percent OECD's Internet policy like body, and
20 percent had the problematic oversight role, which (1)
pursuant to Tunis Agenda references India needed to put
somewhere in its proposal, (2) India was always ready to
discuss it, and (3) in less than a year after the
initial proposal, in its proposal to WG on Enhanced
Cooperation, India split the proposal to separate the
oversight mechanism issue... However, the attitude to,
and name calling vis a vis, its proposal for a Un
platform to develop Internet related policies, and
similar proposals by groups like mine, did not move an
inch... It was the same diabolical multilateral,, inter
gov, proposal, out to control the Internet... <br>
<br>
This is simply a pro rich country and anti developing
country view, which does not behove the global civil
society. <br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:56AA405B.2080901@cippic.ca"
type="cite">It envisioned something similar to ICANN
(which, unlike the OECD, directly implements its
policies by its control of the root, etc), but with
governments at the helm as opposed to the stakeholder
model. </blockquote>
<br>
Oversight of ICANN has been completely distinct from
ICANN proper since the WSIS, the WGIG report and the
Tunis Agenda... It is outrageous to suggest that CIRP
proposal aimed to replace ICANN. And even if there is a
hurry to misunderstand and mis-characterise proposals
from developing country (given their under-capacity to
defend them), it is easy to see that the wording on
'oversight' in the Indiam proposal came from the WGIG
report, where the distinctions between oversight and
actual ICANN operations was clearly made, over much
diligent discussions in an entirely multi-stakeholder
fashion. <br>
<blockquote cite="mid:56AA405B.2080901@cippic.ca"
type="cite">Indeed, one element of the proposal would
have been to place ICANN (and perhaps some of the
other technical communities) under the control of the
new UN governance body. This is very different from
the OECD soft policy-development process.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Yes, you mean the 'oversight element', which issue has
been discussed in detail above, and to repeat, was
removed by subsequent Indian proposals.<br>
<br>
IÂ am happy to discuss this further, and provide an
further information or clarification that you might
require.<br>
<br>
And sorry for the long email..... I wanted to remove
what has become a deep rooted confusion, (to the extent
I can :) )... <br>
<br>
Best regards<br>
parminder <br>
<blockquote cite="mid:56AA405B.2080901@cippic.ca"
type="cite"> <br>
All the best (and happy 2016 !),<br>
Tamir<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/28/2016 8:59 AM,
parminder wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:56AA1ED6.7070207@itforchange.net"
type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On Thursday 28 January
2016 06:48 PM, Lea Kaspar wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAJTVAjy9wD2rSAUDVbHL3UHxjv0kJmvNV3mJgm8Ta6eEiPaP_g@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Hi Parminder, the assumption of the
contradiction seem like a non sequitur. Why
would interest to engage in a process like the
OECD have to imply a normative endorsement of
the status quo? Working with the system that
we've currently got can go hand in hand with
efforts to make the system as a whole better.
Not to mention the value of damage control.</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Yes Lea, that can be... But does there exist any
plan of the engaged civil society to tell the
forthcoming OECD Ministerial that the model of
Internet policy making that they employ is really a
inter-governmental (pluri or multi lateral) one and
not multistakeholder one, and as such not really
acceptable to civil society, even though we may be
working with you per force. And also ask these
governments how they brazenly run such a inter-gov
policy system when they criticise any similar effort
by UN as being distastefully inter-gov and
multi-lateral, and say pious things like that
Internet is just not the kind of thing to be
governed in an inter-gov manner. Are we ready to
make such a statement at the Ministrial, while, ok,
accepting your logic, not stopping to engage with
OECD's policy processes, in a 'damage control' way,
as you put it?<br>
<br>
All these civil society actors and groups were
around in 2011 when they shouted down India's
Internet policy mechanism proposal which was
deliberately shaped exactly on the OECD's model as
being inter-gov and multilateral, and thus
unthinkably bad, representing the worst things that
any human mind could ever come up with... <br>
<br>
In fact, it is just 2-3 years ago that OECD's
Committee on Digital Economy was formed, morphed
from the earlier committee on computers,
communication and information policy -- this
happened much after the civil society's raucous
denouncement of India's UN proposal.... Did, at that
point when this committee was being formed, civil
society tell OECDÂ that Internet cannot be governed
in an inter gov manner, and when they are forming
this new committee thy should make it genuinely
multistakeholder.... No, no one spoke a word.... I
am ready to be told that I am wrong. To repeat, not
one word was said, much less a statement made. it
was not that civil society asked for it, and they
were refused, whereby I may accept what you are
saying... They never uttered a single word.... Such
is its pusillanimity in front of the powerful, while
the real job of civil society is to challenge the
most powerful. <br>
<br>
And now, in preparation for the forthcoming
Ministerial, when in the civil society advisory
group to OECD's committee, an odd voice recently
spoke about whether OECD's process is
multistakeholder enough, the general consensus was,
leave that aside, lets focus on substantive issues!!<br>
<br>
When we are in a discussion about the global policy
stage, suddenly no one can even think of any
important enough non ICANN-y Internet-related public
policy issues at all - we have spent years wondering
whether any or enough of such issues even exist.
It is a real joke!.. Just shift the scene, we are at
the OECD, and such policy issues roll out like no
ones business - work in the Internet age, sharing
economy, economics of data, algorithmic economy,
policy implications of internet of things, big data
and social profiling ........... The list is
unending. Civil society itself actively keeps
suggesting new policy areas and engaging with them.<br>
<br>
People like Nick Ashton will actively argue at
global forums like this, that no, there is no need
to have a separate Internet or digital policies
related body, and all such areas can very well be
dealt by policy bodies looking at respective
impacted domains (work, education, governance, etc)
... But no one tells OECD's Digital Economy Policy
Committee that it is superfluous when OECD has about
50 other committees dealing with every possible
area, where, by that logic , specific issues of
Internet impact could have been adequately dealt
with. <br>
<br>
Lea, you really see nothing contradictory or amiss
here!?<br>
<br>
parminder <br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAJTVAjy9wD2rSAUDVbHL3UHxjv0kJmvNV3mJgm8Ta6eEiPaP_g@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Warm wishes,</div>
<div>Lea</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jan 28,
2016 at 1:13 PM, parminder <span
dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:parminder@itforchange.net">parminder@itforchange.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> <br>
<br>
<div>On Thursday 28 January 2016 06:32
PM, Carlos Afonso wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>Grande Parm,
"Global IG civil society" as a monolithic bloc? Could you elaborate?</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
Dear Carlos,<br>
<br>
Nice to hear from you!<br>
<br>
I should not have generalised. My
apologies. But the civil society
section that engages with OECD's
Internet policy processes is really a
pretty big part of the civil society
groups dominant in the global IG
space. So, my question may be taken
just as being addressed to this quite
big civil society section, vis a vis
their apparently contradictory stand
when they are at the OECD (the club of
the rich countries) vis a vis when
they are at the UN (a grouping of all
countries) .<br>
<br>
best regards, parminder <br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>fraternal regards
--c.a.
On 1/28/16 10:00, parminder wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>Thanks Carolina for compiling this information.
As global IG civil society preparesin full enthusiasm to participate in
the OECD ministerial on digital economy policy, I would ask what has
become my pet question...
Why would you not support the same model of Internet policy making if
all governments instead of just the 34 richest ones are involved, if the
stakeholder participation processes remain exactly the same as with this
OECD process? (And that would include your native country, Brazil.)
I cant make it simpler.
Can all this enthusiasm notbe considered a pro rich countries approach?
Not something that behoves global civil society, which is supposed to be
on the side of the weaker and marginalised, groups and people.
parminder
On Thursday 28 January 2016 07:18 AM, Carolina Rossini wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>Hi all.
Today, we - at PK- have published a couple of short texts about what
is going on in preparation for the OECD Ministerial Meeting. The
Ministerial will take place in Cancun in June 2016.
We've also included information on how to participate. The most
important step is to become a member of CSISAC, the civil society
coalition that channels the participation and concerns of CS in the
OECD.
Best, Carol
· OECD Sets the Scene for Future Decades of ICT Policy Development
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.publicknowledge.org/news-blog/blogs/oecd-sets-the-scene-for-future-decades-of-ict-policy-development" target="_blank">https://www.publicknowledge.org/news-blog/blogs/oecd-sets-the-scene-for-future-decades-of-ict-policy-development</a>
· Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.publicknowledge.org/organization-for-economic-co-operation-and-development" target="_blank">https://www.publicknowledge.org/organization-for-economic-co-operation-and-development</a>
· OECD Ministerial Meetings
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.publicknowledge.org/oecd-ministerial-meetings" target="_blank">https://www.publicknowledge.org/oecd-ministerial-meetings</a>
</pre>
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